Login

Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

If you need to write about anything else please do it here..

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby tumburu » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:16 pm

That's why I prefer libraries sampled at 44.1 from the first time. My audio is already "castrated" (read recorded at 44.1). BTW, castration happens in the lowest area of the body; at the opposite end you simply get a hair cut :geek:
User avatar
tumburu
Vip Member
Vip Member
 
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:00 pm

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby fuseburn » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:52 pm



Thanks for these examples !
I'm hearing exactly the same effects as in my own tests, so I feel reassured my system's probably alright and I'm not crazy :).
- "Audio 44k nebula 44k" and "Audio 96k nebula 96k" sound really waaaay better than the converted ones. 96k has more air & resolution, right. Not necessarily my favourite. Liked the light "S*****" of the 44k-version. While the 96k-96k-version is probably closer and truer to the original hardware character, the 44k-44k has a beneficial side effect - in THIS case.
- "Audio 44k nebula 96" is slightly better than "Audio 96k nebula 44k", but they both lack mojo. You know, that special Nebula thing we're all crazy for :D. Try that example with a ridiculous 15dB CLQ boost at 1,5k with narrowest Q and it'll become even more obvious: 96k-96k it sounds intense, but the ears don't hurt. At 44k-96k the ears DO hurt, slightly, and it "only" feels as good as "just" the UAD2-class of plugins

AlexB wrote:Finally, a sine sampled at 44.1kHz and 96kHz. In a world: RESOLUTION !
Image


ouch...
"si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses"
Explaining the benefits of higher audio resolution with images like that is like explaining sexuality with birds and bees :lol:
I know you know better than that. Always a good read: http://www.lavryengineering.com/documen ... Theory.pdf - page 24-25
User avatar
fuseburn
User Level X
User Level X
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:19 pm

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby TranscendingMusic » Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:56 pm

Yes resolution is not sample rate!
Resolution relates to bit depth.
Sample rate describes the cycles needed to represent frequencies we can hear. More sampling "points" do not equal more resolution.
The Lavry papers are indeed a good read to understand this.
mixing | mastering
Win 10 x64 | Sonar Platinum x64 | 3930K(OC)
User avatar
TranscendingMusic
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:01 am
Location: USA

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby yr » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:31 am

I'm quite sure everyone will agree that processing 96kHz audio tracks with 44.1kHz presets will be inferior to 96kHz presets if you are trying to preserve the audio spectrum...

What many are concerned about, is the possible quality loss when using 96kHz presets to process 44.1kHz tracks and the quality of the Nebula src. I have done quite a lot of tests myself and came to the conclusion that there is a definite quality loss when relying on Nebula's internal src. The degree to which this effect is audible depends on several things, such as the source material, the kind of presets used and the number of internal conversions.

Don't forget that even if the Nebula src was as good as izotope, you are still talking about one conversion per preset (which will typically mean many conversions) as opposed to a total of 2 conversion stages if you choose to up/down sample the audio material, and no conversions if you use presets that match your project's sample rate.

If you look at the way that Nebula down-samples 96kHz presets to 44.1kHz you will see phase shifts (as Niklas already pointed out), which are typical for minimum phase src, and often an increase in aliasing noise. More importantly, many presets are simply not converted properly by Nebula, yielding wrong harmonic distortion relations. Below are 2 images of the same preset, first as 44.1kHz (converted internally by Nebula from 96kHz) and then without src:
44khz.png
44khz.png (70.43 KiB) Viewed 972 times

96khz.png
96khz.png (70.36 KiB) Viewed 972 times
Reuven | post-production & sound-design | scenography |
website | nebula presets
User avatar
yr
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby tumburu » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:46 am

Finally, this discussion is getting constructive instead of patronizing :!:
User avatar
tumburu
Vip Member
Vip Member
 
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:00 pm

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby AlexB » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:21 am

I'm sorry but I referred to visual resolution and not to bit depth, to show the more sampling points.

About harmonic, I have seen the same amount for both in my test but this can be presets dependent.

And probably you haven't understood what I mean about "to castrate"... :roll:

I am tired and I go in bed 8-)
Mix with the ears, not with the eyes...
Facebook
WebSite
User avatar
AlexB
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:28 pm
Location: NW Italy

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby TranscendingMusic » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:33 am

Yes understood however "visual resolution" is not what it seems when it comes to SR. showing sampling rate in discrete stepped fashion as opposed to less stepped does not demonstrate resolution. Sampling rate, after satisfying Nyquist, does not increase resolution with increased values. With 44.1 KHz you have full resolution of audibility, frequency wise, you don't get more with higher rates. Bit depth is resolution; these increased values allows for better representation of multiple computations. So increasing or decreasing this value at whatever point will affect audio tremendously.
mixing | mastering
Win 10 x64 | Sonar Platinum x64 | 3930K(OC)
User avatar
TranscendingMusic
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:01 am
Location: USA

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby Mercado_Negro » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:14 am

At the end of the day Nebula sounds better than most plug-ins out there, even after SRC.
i7 3770k :: Asus P8H77-V LE :: 16Gb DDR3 @1600MHz :: Geforce GT 520 :: OCZ-Vertex 128Gb :: WD Black Series 1Tb and Green Series 1Tb :: F*******e Liquid56 :: REAPER 64bit and StudioOne 64bit (both latest versions) :: Win 10 64bit
User avatar
Mercado_Negro
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:30 am

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby tumburu » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:26 am

Good point!

My last two mixes, one of them done in 96kHz with an UAD Quad Omni system with a mixture of other plugins like Waves CLA and Equality, the other one at 44.1 with Nebula (mostly DocFear, Mammoth, APE, Germanos and AlexB filters, preamps and console inputs); the Nebula mix sounds simply sweet, intimate and musical, while the UAD/Waves one sounds punchy but cold and flat.

Both of them mastered through the Phoenix compressor, the Nebula mix sounds even sweeter, while the other one can't sound even close despite being mastered at 96 with some nice AlexB eqs.
User avatar
tumburu
Vip Member
Vip Member
 
Posts: 430
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:00 pm

Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby TranscendingMusic » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:44 am

Mercado_Negro wrote:At the end of the day Nebula sounds better than most plug-ins out there, even after SRC.


I couldn't agree more. All this SRC buzz falls under the same category as the "aliasing panic" and people dumping their plugins (they actually like) based on some graphs.

Recent example: got to try the Duende S*L bus compressor and WOW, I was floored by it. Even had a comparascent between hardware and this plugin and it's so good. But according to the "alias crew" it would be considered crap.
mixing | mastering
Win 10 x64 | Sonar Platinum x64 | 3930K(OC)
User avatar
TranscendingMusic
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:01 am
Location: USA

PreviousNext

Return to Other things

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 7 guests