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Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby TranscendingMusic » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:36 pm

Not only is 44.1 more practical and easier on the cpu but the higher sample rate/oversampling world is riddled with unexplainable behavior. I already tried to demonstrate this on gearslutz but it fell on deaf ears. Namely, trying to show aliasing and artifacts through FFT is limited at best. Not only is FFt limited but more importantly the way plugins are traditionally coded seem to be "tuned" for a certain circumstance. First of all, using a test tone practically at digital "0" is not reflective of real-world - save if testing for mastering. But the nature of a test tone itself is not reflective of real signals in testing for mixing or mastering. Take this into account along with the fact that for example, all of the tests on Gearslutz on that long plugin analysis thread are a waste. Why? because they use only 1 tone! This brings into play the 1 tone unnatural scenario. Make no mistake about it, try the same processor with more than 1 tone and you get totally different behavior - at either sample rates! At the end of the day, only the ears tell you what's good and what's not. In the meantime, so many users started talking about putting their plugins aside that they've been using and have said "I do like the way this plugin sounds but look at those graphs!" I mean, that's mind boggling. Also, the nature of "blind tests" can be tricky if they are not public. A few listens to some simple mixes revealed that using 96khz or oversampling didn't implicate "better" necessarily, especially when interpolated over a real-mix situation. It was simply different, especially in the high end response. And some times with it's own issues or price to pay using the higher rate. Taking into a consideration a real-mix situation this perceived enhancement in the high end could also be a nuissance. It almost felt as if there was a non-linear response to what you put in from the original. This is only about mixing so far! Tracking at high rates is a whole other story with its own set of issues. This matter is not black and white folks, there's a lot of grey area.
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EDIT: just to add, I just want to make it clear for the "it's going to end up on MP3 anyway" mentality. This is the wrong type of thinking to have! Take a second and think about this. If you were to do a mix and say leave it at 16-bit from start to finish simpy because the redbook is 16-bit, this is a mistake. High resolution (for me personally is 64-bit float/44.1) is tremendous while building wordlength during mixing. The practicality of resolution speaks volumes during processing and mixing signals together. So even if you are ending up with an MP3 or 16-bit cd, high bit-depth is SO important for processing and mixing, and so long as you satisfy Nyquist then you've set the stage to then reduce to whatever lower fidelity you are aiming for while losing less.
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby burnsound » Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:56 pm

All this sample rate discussion is seriously off-topic in this thread.

If you all want to debate sample rates, please be polite and start a thread related to that specifically.

This thread is about the Germanos EQ.


-wannnabe moderator :D
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby TranscendingMusic » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:03 pm

burnsound wrote:All this sample rate discussion is seriously off-topic in this thread.

If you all want to debate sample rates, please be polite and start a thread related to that specifically.

This thread is about the Germanos EQ.


-wannnabe moderator :D


My focus though is to keep The Germanos at an elevated status and not let it get devalued due to some posts about sample rate. I can move and sort this thread out if Niklas doesn't want this talk here.
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby enriquesilveti » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:11 pm

For us Wave Format Extensible at 64/96 kHz is the future for professional audio work and Free Lossless Audio Codec at 24/96 kHz for customer. But in Europe cheap always win.

I'm agree with Transcending Music just mix in 96 kHz will not add so much, you must inspect your audio chain from the beginning in other to "squeeze the juice" of high rates (we call HD for our customers)

AITB can sample at 96 kHz and a lot of new customers will be agree but old 44 kHz customer will complain about it, so AITB can sample at both SR and increase the prices and everyone will complain.
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby tumburu » Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:14 pm

Nobody will complain if they sell them separately. In fact they could have more fans.
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby rrrobo » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:15 am

enriquesilveti wrote:For us Wave Format Extensible at 64/96 kHz is the future for professional audio work and Free Lossless Audio Codec at 24/96 kHz for customer.


Yes, I agree. Sounds great!

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby fuseburn » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:20 am

analoginthebox.com wrote:I was repyling to the statement "96KHz is always better" which is simply not true if you are using Nebula and convert 96KHz programs to 44.1KHz. The kernels get degraded and sample rate conversion causes inaccuracy and faults. I call this "degrading" because you would get (even :D ) better results if the samplerate of the libraries matches your project's samplerate.


This made me take a closer look on how nebula sounds on samplerates different to the program's native samplerate.

I'm afraid he's right:
It's a really bad idea to use programs on non-native samplerates. 96k programs on 44.1k don't suck at the first listen, however if you change sr and have a 2nd listen on 96k (same source material !), the difference becomes pretty obvious.
The weird stuff starts here: UPsampling programs from 44.1 to 96 is just as bad, actually even a bit worse sounding (just a feeling...). Mammoth doesn't sound remotely as good on 96 as on 44.1. The basic character might be there, but the 3D-ness, the shimmer, the mojo, whatever, is missing on 96k. Thanks to this thread - I was pretty underwhelmed by my FlexEQ bundle purchase, working mostly on 48k (expected to hear much more than the demo programs offered, due to everybody's comments) - now that I tried it on 44.1, it all makes sense. VNXT EMT140...phew...how could anyone use it on 44.1...

It even goes further than that: 96k-programs sound best on 96k even if the source material was recorded @ 48k...

Still, 96k-programs on 96k don't generally sound better than 44.1k-programs on 44.1k. You just shouldn't mix the samplerates.

Feel invited to try for yourself, I'm not kidding ! :lol:
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Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby tumburu » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:28 am

Now we're going somewhere :idea:

I noticed the exact same thing with Mammoth @96 (when mastering 96 mixes). However, I find the Siemens from CDSM quite nice sounding at 44.

I believe the solution is to have the option of buying 44 and/or 96 libraries as AITB intends to offer.
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Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby rrrobo » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:56 am

I believe the solution is to have the option of buying 44 and/or 96 libraries as AITB intends to offer.


It is, but the real problem with this is having to capture the device twice - once natively at 44.1 and once again at 96. It would be very time consuming and not particularly inviting for the developers to have to do. I wonder if there is any advantage to converting the sample rate outside of Nebula with a high quality SRC like iZotope 64bit? I've asked this a couple of times before but never really got a definitive answer. Would you still get the artifacts mentioned? If not, developers could potentially sample once at 96 and then convert to 44.1 with no real loss or degradation (but of course it wouldn't be the perfect solution).

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Re: Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

Postby Mimi » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:06 am

artifacts? that artifacts?
Super Hearing infra... linked !!!!!
Hahahahahaha....
I could not resist...



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Last edited by Mimi on Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:22 am, edited 10 times in total.
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