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Sample Rate Discussion (off of AITB Germanos EQ Thread)

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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby Goldfish » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:08 pm

AlexB wrote:Theoretically is clear and after a tons of blind test, to my ears (as a lot of TOP engineer - Toni Maserati, Bob Katz, Bob Ohlsson and many others - search the interviews) 96kHz sounds better than 44.1kHz always. More air, separation, details. Period.

- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz it's OK.
- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it sounds a little better.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it's perfect.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz you lose the quality with downsampling and cutting your sound by steep filter.

They are the facts and for sure everyone is free to think and work with personal preferences.

About converters: Top notch converters like Mytek, UA2192, Prism (ADA series, not Prism Orpheus which is not so clean) and Weiss work perfectly if better even at 192kHz without artifacts.

At the final it's not a matter of what is the best, but what "you" like... And what you can hear :mrgreen:


I concur. I have done a lot of testing on my UA2192 and to me there is an obvious sonic improvement in 96k. If I had enough processing power to run all my mixes at 96 I would.
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby tumburu » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:31 pm

AlexB wrote:Theoretically is clear and after a tons of blind test, to my ears (as a lot of TOP engineer - Toni Maserati, Bob Katz, Bob Ohlsson and many others - search the interviews) 96kHz sounds better than 44.1kHz always. More air, separation, details. Period.

- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz it's OK.
- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it sounds a little better.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it's perfect.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz you lose the quality with downsampling and cutting your sound by steep filter.

They are the facts and for sure everyone is free to think and work with personal preferences.

About converters: Top notch converters like Mytek, UA2192, Prism (ADA series, not Prism Orpheus which is not so clean) and Weiss work perfectly if better even at 192kHz without artifacts.

At the final it's not a matter of what is the best, but what "you" like... And what you can hear :mrgreen:


Well, I believe Bob Katz is more an editor and book writer, Bob Ohlsson is indeed a great name in the industry, but there is a general consensus over at PSW, Brad Blackwood's board, that in blind tests the chances to hear the differences are 50/50 (Brad and many others work at 44.1), the obvious difference being not in the sample rate used but in the bit depth used (almost everybody spots the 24 over 16).
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby mertayy » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:37 pm

tumburu wrote:
AlexB wrote:Theoretically is clear and after a tons of blind test, to my ears (as a lot of TOP engineer - Toni Maserati, Bob Katz, Bob Ohlsson and many others - search the interviews) 96kHz sounds better than 44.1kHz always. More air, separation, details. Period.

- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz it's OK.
- If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it sounds a little better.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it's perfect.
- If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz you lose the quality with downsampling and cutting your sound by steep filter.

They are the facts and for sure everyone is free to think and work with personal preferences.

About converters: Top notch converters like Mytek, UA2192, Prism (ADA series, not Prism Orpheus which is not so clean) and Weiss work perfectly if better even at 192kHz without artifacts.

At the final it's not a matter of what is the best, but what "you" like... And what you can hear :mrgreen:


Well, I believe Bob Katz is more an editor and book writer, Bob Ohlsson is indeed a great name in the industry, but there is a general consensus over at PSW, Brad Blackwood's board, that in blind tests the chances to hear the differences are 50/50 (Brad and many others work at 44.1), the obvious difference being not in the sample rate used but in the bit depth used (almost everybody spots the 24 over 16).


Whatever the consensus is, I'm with alexb on this. I made self test long ago and to me differences were very obvious (even though I don't own mastering grade monitors).
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby analoginthebox.com » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:49 pm

This discussion is getting to a point that I can not leave uncommented. :shock:

First of all:
Alex, what was your intention for your post?
We never have been into any 96KHz vs 44.1KHz discussion! There is no discussion that 96KHz is "better"!

If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it's perfect.

Agreed!
If you work at 96kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 44.1kHz you lose the quality with downsampling and cutting your sound by steep filter.

Partial agreed!

If you work at 44.1kHz and use plugins/programs sampled at 96kHz it sounds a little better.

Totally disagreed!

You as as a developer should know the Nebula SRC algorithm that is pretty unacceptable! You could measure it, or use your ears and you will see/hear that a 96KHz -> 44.1KHz converted version gets worse than a native 44.1 version. A simple converter loop confirms that.

Besides that there could appear all kinds of minor issues with converted programs. For the Germanos series, NAT failed completely at deconvolving a simple 96KHz EQ. Giancarlo and I tried to understand this behaviour, but did'nt get a solution. There are issues, period. Just search through the old forum archieves about users reporting strange behaviour...

Then, you put a UA2192 in line with Mytek, but write about the Orpheus being "not so clean (compared to ADA)? :shock:

I repeat: 96KHz is perfect when working @96KHz. 44.1KHz is perfect when working at 44.1KHz. Downsampling: Signal degrading.
The only solution would be to release for both samplerates and double our prices! :cry:

I didn't write crap about any developer

Well, you wrote about me and my partners "not understanding" that 96KHz is "always better" which is right in theory, but NOT when talking about Nebula. This is quite offensive.
I am beta-tester from the first hour of NAT. I remember Giancarlo called me crazy because I had reported an anomaly of ~0.02dB @ 16KHz. He tried me to explain that this should be fine for my converter, but he was wrong. There was a bug...
So, please, hold your tongue and don't post something about me and our developers "not understanding" when we talk about Nebula land.

What I understand is that I won't pass over all the *possible* (not mandatory) issues for 96KHz downsampled programs to our customers who work mainly at 44.1KHz.
Also, think in a long term. What would happen if we release a Doc Fear program (the only one I am aware of that allows you to use a pultec-style high band and low band at same time = more than 1200 samples!) in 96KHz? I can hear 90% of our customers freaking out because they have more than a minute loading time for a single Nebula EP.

But some people are not only avoiding our 44.1KHz but keep complaining about AITB for not releasing everything at 96KHz, so we will release 96KHz in the future as well. This will go along with increased prices. (It means double worktime!)

But now to the more important points to answer than joining this silly discussion about samplerates.

don't find them to be as good as the equivalents

What equivalents are you talking about? There is nothing besides the 1073 that any other developer released as well. So what do you compare? An apple is "better" than an orange? :o

although this release could put some people off CDSoundMaster's

First of all: If you are in love with a 295b, get Michaels version! Our release is absolutely no competition! Both units sound different and Michael did an outstanding job for this EQ. The concept of the Germanos Series is not to offer 50 programs about a single EQ, but to offer a variety of sounds that are all related to each other. It's a little "time machine"... Michael released a perfect and huge library about a single equalizer.

Finally: Demo should be ready later today. :D

Cheers,
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby Mimi » Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:51 pm

Funny reading these posts... :lol:
I do not really care about that...Better or worse...each has his own point of view and theories.
Here in Brazil We have a monthly magazine that is ostensibly about hardware...
made by several prominent engineers in the country, as : Fabio baumen that builds hardware, and uses the nebula, Mayrton bhaya, carlos freita, engineer who has mastered some materials Mariah carrey...
TranscendingMusic in my opinion was the most consistent, Even a failure can be good... anyone remember the pré amps that had slow slew rate ? a defect that was horrendous for the time... Now this is the best thing in the world.
I have read academic materials dealing with this issue of sampling rate, There are theories that claim that 48 kHz and 96 kHz have more errors than 44.100 and 88.200... :o
Now what is right or wrong ?
Several doctors who are engineers of microchips and DSPs have several theories without a concrete definition, here in Brazil we have Fabio Bauman.
even the legends created about the "best converters" not there is a consensus... :o
There is only one solution use your ears and good taste... And personal preference, without FASCISM.
I use a lot of different developers and get great results... For me subjectively is what matters.
Not that this discussion not good, Is it all good, Samples per second and bla bla bla...
What worries me is the music world crisis... but that is another subjective opinion.
Take care everyone and good mixes... :mrgreen:
Last edited by Mimi on Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby Guest » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:21 pm

Meine Fresse! what's going on here?!
Ok, so if using 96k programs in 44.1 sessions makes things worse than using 44.1 programs,then (to me) it's all clear. I (and probably 75% of worldwide DAW users) work at 44.1. Until I get a super powerfull computer it will stay this way...and I don't care to be honest. This topic is almost like splitting hairs or measuring dicks.

There's thousands of great songs that were done in 44.1 and it will stay this way.

To me a smaller CPU and vibe of the gear counts more than anything else. I love about every program from AITB and never thought: hmmm...wait a second, it's inferior to another 96k program made by alex b.
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby HIFIDELITY » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:00 pm

In all the time iv been visiting this forum old and new, i have never experianced such disrespect and bad manner, from both user AND developer! AITB played a magor roll in the development and growth of Nebula and some of the comments in this thread regarding there products are bang out of order! and i for one think they deserve a bit more respect at the very least! if it wasnt for there exellent FREE Ape,BAE,Doc-fear @ Nebula-programs i just may well of lost intrest in Nebula in the very begining! And more on topic,i for one am VERY glad that AITB sample at 44,and why is this? CHOICE!! I mix at 44 AND master at 96! AND THIS WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE WITHOUT AITB! So please,THINK before you start bad mouthing ANY developers hard work! Remember,Nebula is NOTHING without the 3rd party developers,the last thing anyone wants is for any of them to stop producing exellent new libraries because of disrespectful,nasty,misinformed and potentially VERY harmful comments! After all,Nebula is ALL about Community,so please let us keep it a freindly one :D
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby Mimi » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:29 am

I fully agree with Miro and HIFIDELITY... are 100% certain.
Let's work staff has many albums to mix and time is money...hahahahah
I love everything that is done to nebula, most everyone has their point of view...if you do not like something, do not use and for respect and education do not criticize so pejorative.
we continue this wonderful family we have, and continue helping each other grow, I think this is the philosophy of the nebula... Family. :mrgreen:
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby fuseburn » Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:47 am

AlexB wrote:96kHz sounds better than 44.1kHz always. More air, separation, details. Period.


I agree, fully. But this ONLY applies if your final medium is on 96k aswell (BluRay, DTS-HD etc.). Most people here probably produce music for CD/mp3, 44.1/16 Bit. Even if they worked on 96k for recording and mixing: That last downsampling step entirely erases 98% of what you heard as superiority of 96k. The remaining 2% are "only" weirdly changed and smeared. No matter if we're talking software-based SRC or hardware-based dubbing from 96k-converter out to 44.1-converter in. The better sounding analog alias-filters @ 96k due to less steepness in the filter curve during recording become insignificant aswell.

By any means, 96k is bliss ! It sounds amazing ! But there's simply NO WAY to transfer that niceness to the 44,1-world, so no use in evangelizing people who work there (which is quite a lot).

AlexB wrote:About converters: Top notch converters like Mytek, UA2192, Prism (ADA series, not Prism Orpheus which is not so clean) and Weiss work perfectly if better even at 192kHz without artifacts.


UA2192 is not clean at all, it's pretty colored in the hotter gain ranges. Brilliant for recording with color, but probably one of the most "un-clean" converters I've ever heard... I love it though ! Never use it as a monitoring converter. Rather go for Lynx Aurora, Prism ADA and the likes if you're after clean and good.
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Re: Germanos EQ Series (N*****n/Siemens/TAB/Telefunken)

Postby mertayy » Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:05 am

fuseburn wrote:But this ONLY applies if your final medium is on 96k aswell (BluRay, DTS-HD etc.)...


I disagree, even converted later you get more separation between instruments and to be fair tool you use to convert does matter.

Lets think simple; its like nebula preamp example; 1 instance on main buss might not change alot for some but when applyed to all channels it makes a huge difference. Apply this example to subject.

But of course everything turns into 128 mp3 in the :| but then if we give up why even be here right?

Also topic is subjective hearing so just saying I'm not saying this in an "argument" mode :)
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