Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby Owen » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:20 pm

This being the Nebula forum, it's going to be a bit hard to be seen to be impartial but:

Good or bad, if tools like the SDVCC will be used on many mixes
Whether they get it "right" or not, someone will find a good use for it (as with every other VST plug I'd imagine)
As for cross talk being overly important - if it was so vital to "the sound", wouldn't it already be "out there" and everywhere?
Fabrice has written many popular plugins for EIOSIS and people buy them
Unfortuneatly consumers get to choose what "real analog" is in software. That makes it hard to come to consensus. I say analog, you say distorsion. I say cross talk, you say "rubbish". You say 6 consoles, I say "You think I'm going to use 6?". You say "complex algorithmic model" and I'd say "what's your resolution? How close is 'realistic' to you?" at that point it might get somewhat technical and chances are you'll use terms like "compromise" somewhere in order to bring some "Fantastic innovation" to my desktop...and erm trust me, it's 'perfect' (but I'll bring out a 2.0 and charge you for it..)..ahem. Your analog doesn't sound like erm, mine...it's not, but really, it's good..trust me! Better stop now..

Just go buy something already! Or not..

Owen ;)
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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby Metalblast » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:12 pm

better stop this.
I read already enough about VCC in the gearslutz forum- and 1500 hype entries are enough for the eyes !
Please more 3rd party Neb quality stuff :P

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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby giancarlo » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:29 pm

lordnielson wrote:This sounds like the UAD forum..


Owen wrote:This being the Nebula forum, it's going to be a bit hard to be seen to be impartial but:

ok, you suggested something really good, I appreciate it. I think we need to build on other forum section here, because posting something about a 3rd party product on the nebula forum leads to confusion. A please, YES, post something bad about our products, especially here.
I appreciate the quality of this forum, tell me what's still missing, I need it good and "impartial"
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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby vicnestE » Wed Aug 25, 2010 2:40 pm

Hey man, numeric input :lol:

Soundwise nebula is great.

Officialy explan again why compressor is so hard to sampled would be great.
I'd love to see Nebula compressor working even I have to do off-line bouncing.

And I think this attitude is much better now.
Developer's should be open-minded.
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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby Raynorshyn » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:38 pm

Category list arrow press and hold please! :D

Would love to hold once and have it scroll down without constant clicking. :!:
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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby TranscendingMusic » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:40 pm

SWAN wrote:TM I think your appriasal of algorithmic emulation is interesting and I agree with some of it - but I think you 'could' argue that the actual important factor is whether analogue non-linear behaviour can be modelled well enough to be past the best human ears capability of distinguishing the difference? By then it becomes a moot point surely whether or not there is further dynamic activity happening in the real analogue signal as opposed to the emulated?
Its quite simple to castigate algorithms as static but they are only static from one theoretical standpoint - and if they are well coded I think you can argue they are definitely not static...?
The issue for me is that these days you have very skillful code teams - but actually it is their ears that is most important in tuning the code - just as Alex B ears are important in him making the best programs...also in the future higher sample rates will improve the quality of algo.

As a simple consumer who really just wants to make good sounding music - sometimes it can be difficult to know who to believe in these situations. The Philosopher Ken Wilbur once said that you can not rely completely on a opinion from a man who's financial interest is tied into his opinion...however sometimes the differences are so slight with these console programs that you have to wonder what is best when trying to make your own decision. I am a huge Nebula supporter but I do not follow blindly like a pathetic fanboi (which I think is damaging to a company) - I try to follow for the right reasons.

The Nebula technology has been the only time I have liked ITB colour or saturation and has made me feel happier using a DAW - and so even tho I personally find the console emulations slight - it makes sense to me that Nebula will be doing it best at low levels also. From my previous experience with algo plugins - VCC likely will be producing the common algo plugin 'over-the-top' processing to let the kids hear the process too much...as opposed to true analogue which IS subtle.

Anyways - it is starting to appear that the exciting difference between the Slate ITB and console examples is a 1.3 db gain rise...and further EQ matching makes even more close...so actually - when you make the test fair - just like Alex B has always done with level matching - VCC isnt quite the hype excitement that it appears...

Lots of fun 8-)

Definitely SWAN, I couldn't agree with you more. And just as I said, my main focus on my post was definitely not about knocking code or Slate stuff - I use both myself! I in fact happen to think about that aspect you mentioned of the limited point of human perception which equates to ultimately limiting the perceptive experience of analog's infinite nature all the time. BUT, all things being equal, what I'm driving at is the notion that technically speaking, code can't replicate what something like Nebula does because it's too limited by virtue of what it is. Practically speaking, sure this may not matter because again the perceptive limitations create a threshold (no pun intended!) in the apparent sonority of audio where a limited point in code is suffice to deliver a good enough representation. But since we already have Nebula working in a more or less practical state (and it will only get better and more practical with technology), well why not go with/stick with what better represents the nature of analog at this point. Btw, interesting to hear about the level matching.

NOTE: Guys, I moved this to "Off-topic"
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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby Mercado_Negro » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:11 pm

Blind tests are fun for some people, like me. I really enjoy those (and even more when I already have something similar to compare with). Fabrice is a nice person and an amazing coder, he knows what he's doing, period. Now, Slate... well, he's just selling a product and hyped or not, whether we like it or not, he is just a man doing business; it's up to the end user to decide, after demoing the product, if it really does what one needs. This isn't probably a product for most of us because we already have Nebula but who knows, like most libraries out there it could fit the job in some occasions and it wouldn't hurt to have it there in the toolbox (or do you guys have only one EQ in Nebula?). It's all about getting the job done and if you feel, after demoing, that VCC gets you there there's no reason to not purchase it (unless you're 100% satisfied with what you have now and in this case, you won't even demo it, like me).

It's really shocking to see people on Forums talking about software/hardware like if it's a family matter or something. They're just tools to get the job done, get paid and go back home to put food on the table, simple as that. It doesn't really matter if it's DSP, convolution or black arts, if you're satisfied with the results then it did the job.

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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby prosodio » Wed Aug 25, 2010 6:39 pm

Hi! Why is everybody mad about the emulations being equal in everything as the real deal? For me nebula has approached a new paradigm in mixing. No more and no less. We have no noise, no crosstalk (who wants it?), we have REAL analog sound whithout a lot of cables, spending thousands of dollars, just at our fingertips. The phase shift using the new libraries (cdsoundmaster, alex pro consoles, Velinas eqs....) is totally intact, no more phasey, narrow and thin sound..... it´s not exact like its hardware partners.... but the hardware has unnwanted effects that nebula can avoid. For me it´s very clear since nebula appeared in the game. I´m still mastering in the analog domain just for nice varimu compression and some corrective eq but the main sound come from mixing.... and today I only mix with nebula and analog compressors... Very happpy with my results.... so did Alex with a mix I sent him some days ago. :mrgreen:

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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby burnsound » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:02 pm

Shouldn't this thread simply be moved elsewhere?

This has nothing to do with Nebula 3rd party libraries.
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Re: Slate Digital VCC N**e emu soundz real Gooooood!!

Postby HIFIDELITY » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:55 pm

TranscendingMusic wrote:I'm not knocking Slate stuff, algorithmic stuff at all nor am I saying I would never use Slate stuff (FG-X is really nice for example) or algorithmic stuff in general because I do. However, for the sake of veracity and comprehension I say this: due to the nature of analog, one can not truly re-create its character by simply using algorithmic code. Secondly, one certainly can't insist that they've emulated an element such as cross-talk in a mixbus.

The first point: when it comes to encompassing analog, the variables are SO many. Although not 100% comparable to analog, consequently because of its complexity, Nebula does possess a rich random behaviour just as well and can not be reproduced with code. Simply, the algorithmic approach can only go so far, because coding a behavior is then statically set. It will be the same through that static code. The complexities of the non-linear behavior of analog as well as Nebula can not be replicated thru code because 1) the limiting factors of technology 2) but then putting the limitations aside, the inherent nature of algorithmic code can't duplicate Nebula's dynamic behavior. And when technology gets better and faster, so does Nebula's power exponentially leaving any remnant of a more or less linear and static algorithmic system behind. And then adding in more variables, more complexity it truly becomes impossible for code to replicate copious amounts of non-linear information.

The pseudo-random behaviour that Nebula can replicate of the analog world is a consequence of the impressive number of variables that can and are taken in account from the core engine.

A standard algorithmic approach is based on a single function which in general the next state is calculated as a function of the previous state and the input variables derived from say an electronic schema. So in solving any equation to create an algorithm then you get something deterministic or 'static', the nature of this type of code as compared to Nebula.

Second point: cross-talk is non-predictive behavior that is solely contingent on the channels interaction with one another. One can claim emulated main groupbus cross-talk but you then run into the issue of 1) the predominant cross-talk character is from the channel interactions mostly 2) you are talking about emulating this behavior through limited code once again with set variables not taking into account unqiue dynamic responses at that specific point in time of those specific tracks.

I said a lot about the first point above on Gearslutz months ago! But nobody really wanted to pay any mind to it. Again I'm not saying the coded stuff can't sound good or nice or is not useful - hell, I use it myself of course. But for the sake of "the truth", let's call a spade a spade. I'm not here to say what's THE BEST just simply to clear up the notion that something is ground breaking when there is a more comprehensive method above it that people won't acknowledge.

+1000, Fantastic post,this was the kind of discussion i was provocing when i started this thread! What transending is saying is 100% true! you cannot get true non-linearitie and emulate all the variables in analog devices with 1s and 0s! So how the hell are they fooling so many people with these demos? Is giancarlo right to not trust demos because who knows how the demos were created :twisted: ! or maybe alex is right that half the people cannot tell the difference between guitar hero and a Fender :shock: ! Or is it simply that 75% of people are listing to music on an ipod/laptop or a pair of logitec pc speakers! add to this half the music produced now is produced on computers with the very plugins that are under scruteny here and that 80% of DJs are either spinning CDs or useing Traktor or Ableton! digitally produced music is being rammed down our throat :o So i put it to you! Do the new generation of music Producers/Mixers/Djs and most of all listeners simply like the SOUND of digital???
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