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Can't get an invoice for my purchase

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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby kingslanemusic » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:55 am

Classik wrote:So, is it just me or have you guys succeeded to get a proper invoice from Acustica (not the automated receipt of payment from Paypal) and how?

Best,
Thomas


I have exactly the same issue.
I have made several attempts to get a clarification on this to no avail.
There was a support ticket conversation with Enrique where he told me to
request a B2B invoice right after the purchase - which I did. ( literally minutes after the purchase )
But the manually created invoice I received has VAT 0.- € .

giancarlo wrote:I add a detail: for b2b invoices you should communicate your VIES and we should verify it at the link:
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/?locale=it


I've done exactly this - at least 3 times.

giancarlo wrote:this is the reason why you should contact us BEFORE BUYING (exactly like apple is doing, you should phone them BEFORE).
So we can tell you if we can do a b2b invoice.
But in general if you required successfully a b2b invoice previously just buy and contact us, possibly in the same day.


No one ever has told me to contact AA BEFORE buying, there is not even the slightest hint in your web shop or anywhere else.
BTW, I have bought tons of Apple equipment over the past 25 years and NEVER had to contact them before the purchase in order to get a proper invoice.

giancarlo wrote:About gross and net amounts:
our prices are "gross". It means that USA is paying goods MORE than france: we apply a VAT on the product in EU.
Anyway for B2B invoices we convert the full gross to the amount in reverse charge. It means you pay the product MORE, because on this price you should pay taxes.

An example: a product is priced 120 eur
USA pays 120, full gross. We don't pay IVA (our national VATs)
UK pays 120, but we pay 20 eur to UK using MOSS
If the customer asks for a b2b invoice he pays 120 and gets and invoice on 120 but 0 VATs. It means we will not pay anyting to UK.But he is forced to pay OTHER 20% on the full reverse charge amount, so other 24 eur. He pays the product 144 (120 eur + 24 eur vat)


This is something I do not understand at all and neither does my tax accountant.
In practice it means you are taking gross for net and you advertise with net
prices.
There is NO other EU based company I have ever dealt with handling it the way you do it.

Classik wrote:I hate being forced to make the subject public as I love the products and I'd be much more happy to discuss the use of such EQ/Compressor instead of ranting here...
Best,
Thomas


I can only agree with that, I love AA - but I'm holding back further purchases ( e.g. Coral ) until this is resolved.
This quirky issue does not match the overall open mindedness and transparency of AA at all, imo.

best,

Sebastian
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:35 am

kingslanemusic wrote:
Classik wrote:So, is it just me or have you guys succeeded to get a proper invoice from Acustica (not the automated receipt of payment from Paypal) and how?

Best,
Thomas


I have exactly the same issue.
I have made several attempts to get a clarification on this to no avail.
There was a support ticket conversation with Enrique where he told me to
request a B2B invoice right after the purchase - which I did. ( literally minutes after the purchase )
But the manually created invoice I received has VAT 0.- € .

giancarlo wrote:I add a detail: for b2b invoices you should communicate your VIES and we should verify it at the link:
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/?locale=it


I've done exactly this - at least 3 times.

giancarlo wrote:this is the reason why you should contact us BEFORE BUYING (exactly like apple is doing, you should phone them BEFORE).
So we can tell you if we can do a b2b invoice.
But in general if you required successfully a b2b invoice previously just buy and contact us, possibly in the same day.


No one ever has told me to contact AA BEFORE buying, there is not even the slightest hint in your web shop or anywhere else.
BTW, I have bought tons of Apple equipment over the past 25 years and NEVER had to contact them before the purchase in order to get a proper invoice.

giancarlo wrote:About gross and net amounts:
our prices are "gross". It means that USA is paying goods MORE than france: we apply a VAT on the product in EU.
Anyway for B2B invoices we convert the full gross to the amount in reverse charge. It means you pay the product MORE, because on this price you should pay taxes.

An example: a product is priced 120 eur
USA pays 120, full gross. We don't pay IVA (our national VATs)
UK pays 120, but we pay 20 eur to UK using MOSS
If the customer asks for a b2b invoice he pays 120 and gets and invoice on 120 but 0 VATs. It means we will not pay anyting to UK.But he is forced to pay OTHER 20% on the full reverse charge amount, so other 24 eur. He pays the product 144 (120 eur + 24 eur vat)


This is something I do not understand at all and neither does my tax accountant.
In practice it means you are taking gross for net and you advertise with net
prices.
There is NO other EU based company I have ever dealt with handling it the way you do it.

Classik wrote:I hate being forced to make the subject public as I love the products and I'd be much more happy to discuss the use of such EQ/Compressor instead of ranting here...
Best,
Thomas


I can only agree with that, I love AA - but I'm holding back further purchases ( e.g. Coral ) until this is resolved.
This quirky issue does not match the overall open mindedness and transparency of AA at all, imo.

best,

Sebastian


the situation will change on the new website, we'll try to figure a way for doing it.


Just to clarify, when we sell a 200 eur plugin in USA we don't have vats (our incomes are higher). In all europe we pay taxes in each country (so our incomes are lower because we pay taxes in each country); when you require a b2b the price is a net and you pay directly taxes in your country (basicallly the price is higher, exactly the one applied to USA customers; you pay taxes exactly like they are doing).

It would be great if everybody would use b2b invoices in europe, so our prices would be the same in each country and in each situation!!! Outside and inside europe bounds! But europe is a mess, this is the real answer.
Basically we are forced to this b2c mess. I don't know why things are so complicated (and moss is a perfect example of unuseful complexity).

Setting the price this way is not illegal to my knowledge; what is important is someone pays vats, but there is not a rule which forces a company to keep a fixed net price. The situation is completely different from companies who are making a discount if you don't require an invoice because they hide sales and they avoid to pay taxes. Basically we are doing ALL our transactions using paypal, which is a sort of bank, so we are forced to declare all sales to our tax system, we cannot evade even a single eur.

Reason why we do it this way is very simple: on this actual market store we cannot express a net amount. It would be easier if you could buy using this different logic. We should propose a different price, and we cannot do it. We should return the amount back, and it is very complex and partially illegal for our taxations systems if we use paypal. Using a bank transfer it is a complete nightmare and very error prone (and there would be commissions and misalignments).
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby kingslanemusic » Fri Nov 18, 2016 10:49 am

Ok, I've taken the time to read through the VAT rules in the EU ( changed in 2015 ).
Points I found out are:

- prices in your web shop HAVE to be gross, you are not allowed to advertise net prices

- Customers from the EU HAVE to pay the VAT rate according to their national level. This will result in different net prices for the seller ( Acustica Audio ) because the VAT rates vary from country to country.
You are correct in saying you earn more when selling to outside the EU
(e.g. the US). Your earning will also vary from different customers inside the EU, because of different VAT levels in each EU country.

The manually created B2B invoice you sent me has VAT 0.-€ which is
to my and my tax accountants understanding illegal - referring to the above
rules.
I am not assuming you do this intentionally, quite the contrary, I've always felt AA is a very reliable and transparent company.
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:21 pm

To my knowledge: price in this case is simply higher. And in this case you pay taxes and not austica. There is no rule in eu that forces to sell b2b at the same price used for b2c. What is important is the fact someone pays vat taxes, and always. In this case vats are paid from you in your country directly for a product which is more expensive.

B2B and B2C stores could be different, this is the point.
Anyway we'll ask it again, asking doesn't hurt.
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby kingslanemusic » Fri Nov 18, 2016 4:49 pm

giancarlo wrote:To my knowledge: price in this case is simply higher. And in this case you pay taxes and not austica. There is no rule in eu that forces to sell b2b at the same price used for b2c. What is important is the fact someone pays vat taxes, and always. In this case vats are paid from you in your country directly for a product which is more expensive.


Yes, but that is exactly my point.
If the price for a professional customer (B2b) is higher it means you advertise net prices.
( web shop price + VAT ).
This is not allowed in the EU.

There needs to be at least a clear hint during the purchase procedure,
otherwise it is misleading.

And, to my knowledge, all customers of products
sold inside the EU pay VAT - regardless if b2c or b2b.
The only difference is when you're a b2b customer you can claim a VAT tax refund in your country.
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Fri Nov 18, 2016 5:15 pm

sure but you know the price as soon as you contact us via email and provide your vat number (mandatory for getting a b2b invoice).
Anyway we are asking the same question to a lawyer.

About b2b: if you receive a b2b invoice with zero vat it means it is in reverse charge. In this case you cannot claim a vat refund because it is zero.

What I know: from the fiscal point of view the invoice is correct. About the different pricing used for b2b and b2c I don't know if it is "legal" (or it should be advertised in different ways, like expressly calculating in the email we send as reply to your vat mail), this is the reason why we are asking to a lawyer.
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby kingslanemusic » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:55 pm

Ok, thanks for your responsiveness so far !

It would be great to get a final statement from a lawyer so we can
continue enjoying and purchasing your wonderful products.

You can of course PM me when you have news regarding this, although
I believe this is of public interest ( at least to some customers )

grazie !
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:46 pm

still investigating.... tomorrow we'll have a speach with the lawyer (it was postponed)
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby fuseburn » Tue Nov 22, 2016 2:22 am

I had the same problem of not being able to receive ANY invoice for my purchase, even after several mails down the road. I stopped worrying about it and decided to never ever buy anything from you guys again, but this puts it to a whole new level.

Your prices are higher for people with a VAT ID ? ARE YOU CRAZY ?

Reverse Charge for services within the EU means:
- Buyer doesn't pay VAT to the seller.
- Seller doesn't receive the VAT amount and therefore doesn't have to forward it back to the buyers country.
- Buyer pays VAT amount to his country's tax office, at the country's local VAT percentage.
- Buyer can reclaim that same VAT amount back from the tax office, so the effective VAT amount equals 0.

The word REVERSE CHARGE means: The buyer is charged with the VAT instead of the seller. And that OBVIOUSLY means: The seller doesn't collect any VAT from the buyer, hence the total amount is reduced.

I bought PINK in your shop for 149,- € and I expected it to be 122,13 € net + 26,87 € italian VAT (22%).

Now you claim it's 149,- € net + (in my case) 28,31 € german VAT (19%) - just because I'm a business ?

I can't believe that every shabby Amazon Warehouse dealer in any EU country gets this right and will supply me with a proper invoice with VAT (and they sell goods, not services !), while it seems to be rocket-science-hard to do for you.

I've never encountered any other company handling it like you seem to do - no matter if they make it clear upfront or not. It's not even depending on what your lawyer will tell you - it's straight up morally questionable !

Please fix this !
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:52 pm

Ok but the accountant and the lawyer basically said the same.

Here final words from them:
- the only things we need to do on our side is to specify in our market that the price for b2b could be different. Basically there is no law which enforces the same price both for the b2b and the b2c shop. Anyway we need to say "it could be different". Basically we already did it in the forum, but from a transparency point of view it is better if we place the same disclaimer also in our webshope (we'll do it asap).
- it is not "illegal" (answer to the question): read below
- infact it is true that for the end consumer we are forced to comunicate the FINAL gross price, but all european rights used for the "consumer" don't apply to "companies". Basically the lawyer said that "companies" are a sort of "informed" subject, so it is enough to specify that the price will be different. When you ask for a b2b invoice you are not an end consumer any more, you are a company. A lot of rules change or don't apply.
- if you want to know the final price of a b2b transaction just send an email before buying

Anyway as soon as we'll set up the new system we'll evaluate a way for getting a b2b shop with prices expressed as gross amounts with vat0 (so a lower price), but the answer to the question is "today what we are doing is not illegal". The accountant basically told us the same, but we preferred to consult a lawyer because the "illegal question".

About amazon: still it is a different case, for example amazon here in italy is an italian company which is sending goods directly from italy. I don't know which is your case. When I ordered things from amazon coming from different countries I had a similar situation (no vat expressed, just a "gross" and I paid that exact gross).
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