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Can't get an invoice for my purchase

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Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby Classik » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:26 pm

I hate being forced to make the subject public as I love the products and I'd be much more happy to discuss the use of such EQ/Compressor instead of ranting here, but after several emails with support I just can't get a proper invoice for my recent (September) purchase of Ivory. As a company, we need an invoice from the vendor for our accounts, ie a document describing the goods, the price and all tax attached to it (local Italian VAT if applicable, and international VAT ID of Acustica Audio).
Seems like two months later is already too late :shock: and I should have asked at purchase time instead of just expecting the invoice to be proactively issued by the vendor, as it has to happen in such cases.

So, is it just me or have you guys succeeded to get a proper invoice from Acustica (not the automated receipt of payment from Paypal) and how?

Best,
Thomas
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:18 am

ok, in brief.
About 2014 we generated all invoices, and it happened someone asked invoice an year later! (I remember hannes several months ago).

About 2015 rules changed again, because the whole EU VAT system changed again. They introduced MOSS and changed several rules.

TODAY (2015):
- we generate invoices for 6 EU countries where it is compulsory to do it. IE slovenia. We are speaking about B2C (business to consumer)
- we account all other things in "registro dei corrispettivi" and MOSS (no invoices, we pay VAT taxes directly to the country).


For the other countries or for B2B (business to business) you need to ask for the invoice at the moment you buy. We allowed B2C it several days later, but after a certain period of time we cannot do it any more.

In such case:
- if the customer sends a valid VIES identifier we are speaking about B2B (business to business)

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/?locale=it

we create an invoice in reverse charge for the full amount which becomes a "net". In such case it is a b2b invoice and we need also to declare it in inter-state (there are complex rules on it). Please note we need the VIES number immediatly because we need to create a "compulsory invoice".

- if the customer doesn't send a valid identifier we are speaking about B2C (business to consumer), and we create an invoice with VAT full expressed in the invoice, and we still use MOSS declaration on it (in this case it is a B2C invoice).
PLEASE NOTE FOR THIS CASE: there are several countries where a B2C is mandatory (compulsory), other ones where it is not. In such case you should ask in time (not a month later just to say)



About timings for requiring an invoice check this link, this is the EU legislation!

Here full rules:
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/index_en.htm

Is there a time limit for issuing invoices other than that for intra-Community supplies or cross-border supplies of services subject to the reverse charge?
(History)
Valid from:
11/03/2013
*A more recent answer is available for this question in the National Language(s).
Last update date:
11/03/2013 13:54:38
Language:
en
Answer:
Yes, see answer question 7


The invoice should be issued when the transaction is made (Article 6 and 21(4) of Presidential Decree 633/1972). In derogation to the rule: a) for supply of goods delivered or sent as resulting from a transport notice or from any other document suitable to identify the subjects involved according to specific requirements determined by law, as well as for service supply identified by suitable documentation, made in the same month towards the same subject, a summary invoice can be issued detailing the single transaction operated before the 15th day in the month following the transactions. b) For supply of goods made to third party by the customer through the supplier, the invoice is issued before the end of the month following the delivery or shipping of the goods. web site www1.agenziaentrate.gov.it/inglese/


Since we are force to generate the invoice immediatly, it means that if the data is missing we cannot do a b2b invoice. A b2b invoice is a "compulsory case".


Please note that for 6 countries we are forced to generate invoices in any case, and we do it using the data available. But again if they want a B2B invoice they should ask.
There is a little disclaimer in our shop about this exact issue.


I know there are other companies like apple who are generating b2c invoices for every transaction (without a proper VIES, so really they are not b2b ones), but if you need a b2b you should ASK and even phone them! using an international number.
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:24 am

I add a detail: for b2b invoices you should communicate your VIES and we should verify it at the link:
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/vies/?locale=it

this is the reason why you should contact us BEFORE BUYING (exactly like apple is doing, you should phone them BEFORE).
So we can tell you if we can do a b2b invoice.
But in general if you required successfully a b2b invoice previously just buy and contact us, possibly in the same day.

So we don't account your amount in registro dei corrispettivi and put it in the "inter-state" basket. A month later like in this case is NOT ok.



About gross and net amounts:
our prices are "gross". It means that USA is paying goods MORE than france: we apply a VAT on the product in EU.
Anyway for B2B invoices we convert the full gross to the amount in reverse charge. It means you pay the product MORE, because on this price you should pay taxes.

An example: a product is priced 120 eur
USA pays 120, full gross. We don't pay IVA (our national VATs)
UK pays 120, but we pay 20 eur to UK using MOSS
If the customer asks for a b2b invoice he pays 120 and gets and invoice on 120 but 0 VATs. It means we will not pay anyting to UK.But he is forced to pay OTHER 20% on the full reverse charge amount, so other 24 eur. He pays the product 144 (120 eur + 24 eur vat)
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:38 am

a full summary is located here:
http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/ta ... onal_rules


please note that if we don't have proper data in time, we are not in the compulsory b2b case.
So we are speaking about b2c. Again: not all b2c are "compulsory", it means that only for several countries we are forced to generate it immediatly. In all other cases if you don't receive it immediatly you should ask.

Again about b2b:
This is the reason why you should provide a VIES number to us. Since there is not a field for providing it in paypal and we should verify it manually before creating a b2b we suggest to contact us BEFORE. We need to know it is a b2b invoice at least!
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:40 am

When is an invoice compulsory?
An invoice is required for VAT purposes under EU rules in:
most business-to-business (B2B) supplies
certain business-to-consumer (B2C) transactions
There may also be specific national rules on transactions requiring an invoice.


- so all B2B are compulsory (but you need to provide a VIES!)
- several B2C (6 countries I said before)
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby Classik » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:10 pm

Well thank you at last for the detailed explanation which took us many emails to get there! I’ll have a look into it with my accountant. In all cases may I suggest –to avoid such situations- to make it clear the client has the ability to declare the purchase as a B2B transaction? I've just been through your ordering system again this morning and I fail to see any indications about this possibility (a simple contact us @... would suffice!).

Anyway, although I understand the transaction is tagged as B2C and cannot be changed to B2B, all I've been asking is the related invoice including VAT information, even if it is a B2C invoice that I can perfectly and legally deal with. I fail to understand why this cannot be done.

Thanks,
Thomas
Studio Sequenza
Acoustic Recordings
http://www.sequenza.fr
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby Classik » Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:24 pm

And just to be clearer on the last point, even if you happen to be right about the fact a B2C invoice is not compulsory, I don't understand why you cannot issue it upon request. You do realize that responding to all my mails and on this forum took you 20x the time required to prepare the document for us, don't you think?

Best,
Thomas
Studio Sequenza
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http://www.sequenza.fr
Classik
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:56 pm

it is about being legal.
Once the invoice was not generated, we cannot generate it a month later with a fake date, since the transaction is stored in paypal ( = bank).
Invoices have a number, you cannot add an invoice in the middle.
Other issue, everything was already stored in moss.... and was not declared in interstate. Other issue: the invoice was not registered in the fiscal system. Simply it does not exist, we cannot create it!

For everyone: we solved refunding and redoing a bought at a new date.
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby Classik » Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:59 pm

Confirmed, thanks for the good spirit of our side conversations by mail.

Best,
Thomas
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Re: Can't get an invoice for my purchase

Postby giancarlo » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:06 pm

:)
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