Login

new level of NAT transparency

Tips & tricks, working results, technical support

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby lordnielson » Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:57 pm

CDSoundMaster wrote:I don't want to go on a long time here, but I do want to stress that there are very practical, tedious processes that go along with NAT to make programs sound correct. Even as new compression programs and free items may come along, there are some things that still require fine tuning before they are worth the full devotion to sampling.


Fine tuning which is difficult without the proper set of tools, would you agree?

Hence the original question: Have Nat rescources been tilted in favour of commercial developers ? Should something be done about that ?

What does "full devotion to sampling" mean ?
lordnielson
Member
Member
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:29 pm
Location: Copenhagen

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby Owen » Sat Jul 10, 2010 2:38 pm

lordnielson wrote:Have Nat rescources been tilted in favour of commercial developers ?


If by commercial developers, you mean, people who:

a) Have a better than average grasp on recording principles and the properties of analogue equipment and the dynamic properties of real world audio systems

b) Have spent a lot of time playing with the tool and have had some input into its development

c) Also have access to high quality dacs/equipment to compare and experiment and have an intention of selling presets

You'd probably be barking up the right tree.

I believe personally that the tooling is:

Complicated enough that it's not like a microwave oven for most applications i.e. you hit the defrost button and at some point your chicken is adequetely defrosted (but even with modern appliances, it takes some common sense approach to understand what "Defrost" means when examining your food afterwards right?)

Significantly different from most other applications given the wide range of possible, potential applications

Close to a paint by numbers system in certain cases, but only if you understand the context of certain paradigms and use the templates as a starting point. Some tasks are more of a "doodle" than others

CDSoundMaster wrote:there are some things that still require fine tuning


Correct. The tooling/templates are not perfect as is for all possible permutations of every type of capture. I might also add that such a statement is not analogous to "it's full of flaws" either.

I'll leave CDSM to answer his own statements......

Owen ;)
Owen
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 152
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:20 am

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby lordnielson » Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:06 pm

Owen wrote:Close to a paint by numbers system in certain cases, but only if you understand the context of certain paradigms and use the templates as a starting point. Some tasks are more of a "doodle" than others


Hence the original question: Have Nat rescources been tilted in favour of commercial developers ? Should something be done about that ?
lordnielson
Member
Member
 
Posts: 253
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 6:29 pm
Location: Copenhagen

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby RJHollins » Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:07 pm

obviously not ...

common sense would say you need NAT to become a commercial developer... not the other way around.
i7-5820k, MSI X99A Plus, 16 GIG Ram, Noctua NH-D14, Win-7 Pro [64-bit], Reaper-64

NVC [Nebula Virtual Controllers]
RJHollins
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 2626
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:53 pm

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby jet » Sat Jul 10, 2010 7:45 pm

My answers.

Have Nat rescources been tilted in favour of commercial developers ? Yes

Should something be done about that ? Yes

Does the Software Iv bought, Nat Actually work ? No

One word Answers Will be fine .

Cheers .
jet
User Level 0
User Level 0
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:00 pm

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby ngarjuna » Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:50 pm

Owen wrote:
lordnielson wrote:Have Nat rescources been tilted in favour of commercial developers ?


If by commercial developers, you mean, people who:

a) Have a better than average grasp on recording principles and the properties of analogue equipment and the dynamic properties of real world audio systems

b) Have spent a lot of time playing with the tool and have had some input into its development

c) Also have access to high quality dacs/equipment to compare and experiment and have an intention of selling presets

You'd probably be barking up the right tree.

I believe personally that the tooling is:

Complicated enough that it's not like a microwave oven for most applications i.e. you hit the defrost button and at some point your chicken is adequetely defrosted (but even with modern appliances, it takes some common sense approach to understand what "Defrost" means when examining your food afterwards right?)

Significantly different from most other applications given the wide range of possible, potential applications

Close to a paint by numbers system in certain cases, but only if you understand the context of certain paradigms and use the templates as a starting point. Some tasks are more of a "doodle" than others

CDSoundMaster wrote:there are some things that still require fine tuning


Correct. The tooling/templates are not perfect as is for all possible permutations of every type of capture. I might also add that such a statement is not analogous to "it's full of flaws" either.

I'll leave CDSM to answer his own statements......

Owen ;)


Well yes, obviously people with more experience and better equipment have the potential to get better results, that much is common sense.

But what about the so-called Platinum package? I have been a Nebula user (and pretty involved in several Nebula forums and communities) for a while now and the first I ever heard of this was in a thread this week; so honestly, I have no idea what this is. Is it the equivalent of an SDK? Is it a different version of Nat? Is it priced in such a way that it only really makes sense to commercial developers? These are honest questions, like I said I have no info on any such product or how to buy it or why I would even want to (in my case, as a non-developer, I'm guessing I probably wouldn't). Is the actual functionality different or is Platinum more like a licensing platform for selling libraries?

The issue of the fine tuning is, to me, the biggest mystery about NAT. Every developer has alluded to the fact that the programs were really close after a good NAT session but still required some significant "tweaking" to get them the rest of the way. What does this mean, exactly? Maybe the third party developers won't want to share secrets like this (although CDSoundmaster doesn't seem to be holding anything back, typical of his helpfulness in answering questions for the community) but it seems to be the big difference between programs that are "almost there" and programs that "are all the way there".

Even without spilling a detailed, step by step process document, what is meant by "tweaking the programs"? I think that information would be a big help to amateur developers.

I do agree with you that none of these questions suggest that NAT is flawed or broken; it's a knowledge gap. If Nebula didn't have a tool and a dedicated community based on sampling our gear this knowledge gap wouldn't really be much of an issue. But for perfectionists who want their non-commercial programs to be the very best they can be, it could seem like information is being withheld (I don't think that's really what's happening but I can see how someone might think that).

Personally, I see closing that knowledge gap as being a benefit to everyone, commercial and non-commercial developers alike; and that is translated directly into a benefit to the user base. I believe this dual-channel approach to third party programs is ideal; surely there are some products and projects that are better suited to one style than the other. Which is why I'm so appreciative when people like CDSoundmaster go to such lengths to share their information, that really is huge.
User avatar
ngarjuna
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Miami

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby futur2 » Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:28 pm

ngarjuna wrote:Even without spilling a detailed, step by step process document, what is meant by "tweaking the programs"? I think that information would be a big help to amateur developers.


very good post!
futur2
Member
Member
 
Posts: 303
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 8:16 pm

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby trickster » Sun Jul 11, 2010 5:00 am

^^^Yep

Firstly, props to CDSM for put some information out there. It sometimes feels as though these sorts of questions attract a pretty defensive response when I think they are valid questions from a user base that generally incredibly supportive of all the developers and show an amazing amount of resilience for the complicated (but hugely worthwhile) process that is involved with being a Nebula user.

I want to add my concern that the current method of sharing NAT information may exclude Neb/NAT owners who are willing to put effort into sampling great gear but are not privvy to the channels of information that other members are (whether they are commercial interests or not). These people may or may not be able or willing to tune a set of programs to a commercial product level but I for one would still be interested in the results and the whole community may benefit. Lord Neilsons pre amp and compressor programs are a case in point; they may not be commercially viable but they sure as hell are appreciated by a lot of users. There are also people out there for who the commercial process itself is not something they want to engage in but would still be interested in sharing a more or less commercially viable product.

CDSM's page is a great first step and I hope we might be able to find more solutions for encouraging gear sampling at all levels.
trickster
User Level IV
User Level IV
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:50 am

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby cdsoundmaster » Sun Jul 11, 2010 6:26 am

I agree that it is a good idea to encourage the most beneficial ethics and benefit to community for sampling at all levels.

You can help me with the next stage of this process and send me the group of templates that come with the NAT Platinum package. I don't work from what was distributed so some advice can only come from seeing what users have to work with.

You can zip the templates and email them to me.

trickster wrote:^^^Yep

Firstly, props to CDSM for put some information out there. It sometimes feels as though these sorts of questions attract a pretty defensive response when I think they are valid questions from a user base that generally incredibly supportive of all the developers and show an amazing amount of resilience for the complicated (but hugely worthwhile) process that is involved with being a Nebula user.

I want to add my concern that the current method of sharing NAT information may exclude Neb/NAT owners who are willing to put effort into sampling great gear but are not privvy to the channels of information that other members are (whether they are commercial interests or not). These people may or may not be able or willing to tune a set of programs to a commercial product level but I for one would still be interested in the results and the whole community may benefit. Lord Neilsons pre amp and compressor programs are a case in point; they may not be commercially viable but they sure as hell are appreciated by a lot of users. There are also people out there for who the commercial process itself is not something they want to engage in but would still be interested in sharing a more or less commercially viable product.

CDSM's page is a great first step and I hope we might be able to find more solutions for encouraging gear sampling at all levels.
cdsoundmaster
Vip Member
Vip Member
 
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:18 am

Re: new level of NAT transparency

Postby ericus » Sun Jul 11, 2010 7:14 am

CDSoundMaster wrote:I agree that it is a good idea to encourage the most beneficial ethics and benefit to community for sampling at all levels.

You can help me with the next stage of this process and send me the group of templates that come with the NAT Platinum package. I don't work from what was distributed so some advice can only come from seeing what users have to work with.

You can zip the templates and email them to me.

Hi Mangel! Did you mean NAT Pro (NAT 3)? If I understand correctly, Nat Platinum is only for commercial devs.

If you were talking about NAT 3, you can find the latest templates here:

http://www.acustica-audio.com/forum/index.php?f=18&t=259&rb_v=viewtopic

Eric
ericus
Member
Member
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:37 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Working with Nat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests