Login

Offline sampling questions

Tips & tricks, working results, technical support

Offline sampling questions

Postby MisterE » Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:09 am

I posted this over at nebula-programs too, because the forums both here and there don't seem to get much traffic these days...

1st-I am using Nat2, and finally decided to get around to trying to sample some stuff. I decided to start with a software tube sat emulation. I picked the session file for preamp offline, 5kernel smooth1. After reading through forums for hours I found a post somewhere that contained a tidbit of info that it is best to sample distortion with stone sessions, is that right? Because really I want to create a program with lots of color (distortion).

2nd, When I follow the scant instructions that are available, I get not one, but 3 wav files generated. I have read through the forums, and the guides, and I have never seen anywhere mention any more than ONE wav file to be ran through whatever I am sampling. This, right off the bat, throws me for a loop. Seems to me an important detail to mention. Am I supposed to run the 'backupthis_EA.wav' and 'backupthis_ER.wav' files through target for sampling along with the 'backupthis.wav' also?

3- What does the 'normalize' checkbox do under expert in the deconvolve tab?

4- Could someone please please for the love of all that is good explain to me for once and for all, what is the actual difference between increasing the 'drive' slider and the input slider in nebula preamp programs?

5- I've made a few programs by guessing at the details that I didn't know, and decided to try a 7kernel offline, and clicked the stone box as well. Generated the new wavs, ran all 3 through the plugin, deconvolved and got a program that doesn't work. The output of the program is this screeching mess thats waaaaay loud. I noticed that there is only a stone session in the nat4 sessions pack for 5k programs. Why is this? Does stone not work with 7kernel? Is that why I got a screeching mess whereas my 5k smooth programs weren't a screeching mess? I did everything the same for the two.
MisterE
User Level I
User Level I
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 12:51 pm

Re: Offline sampling questions

Postby MisterE » Mon Jun 07, 2010 3:50 pm

ooops, i guess i meant to post this in the working with nat forum. sorry for messing up your organization!
MisterE
User Level I
User Level I
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 12:51 pm

Re: Offline sampling questions

Postby giancarlo » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:58 am

first of all, offline sampling is not easier. In general is error prone. You have 3 files but 2 of them are for envelopes, they are aimed to compressors. You should never mdify parameters in the expert page, unless you know what you are doing. We could create a wiki page with an explanation of them, in general you should modify only parameters in the deconvolve tab are safe, but normalze should never be used for preamps. If resulting level is too low you should modify Gainpadout in the glob page of nebula. Drive knobs should be sampled using multi sampling, the drive knob implemented in many templates is a fake gain of harmonics, it doesn't work at all like a standard drive
User avatar
giancarlo
Founder
Founder
 
Posts: 9173
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Offline sampling questions

Postby MisterE » Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:17 pm

Thanks for the reply. So, if I am sampling some 'tube distortion' and not necessarily a high end tube amp, then I can expect some compression of the signal. So then I should run all 3 of those tones through the target vst/hardware? Only if there is compression do I run the other two tones through, or always? Its just confusing because I've never seen anyone mention that there 3 seperate tones generated, they only mention 1. So I run all 3 through?

I have an Maudio 24/96 and for some reason I can't get the online sampling to produce a program with nearly the kind of flat frequency response that I can get with a program made by offline. Plus I wanted to sample a vst anyway. So I needed offline.

Also, how am I supposed to ever learn what the parameters in expert do if there is never going to be a manual, and if I am not 'allowed' to experiment with them myself to see? I am just a guy trying to make a few programs aimed at FX use/higher distortion levels, not someone sampling high end expensive stuff. But, in general, I think that the difficulties in using NAT and Nebula are probably hurting your sales figures. I know you are mainly focused on the program itself, but thats like a politician not putting any time into his public image at all, he could be doing the right thing but if he never tells anyone what exactly he is doing or why, then the public can still turn on him. Its a necessary evil. Kissing babies, shaking hands, adressing the masses. Writing manuals for your software. I mean, I currently see maybe 3 main people/groups producing the higher end libraries for nebula. Did each of those people have to personally get in contact with you to get some kind of briefing on how all the stuff in NAT really works so they could produce those high end programs, or did they experiment with the expert page and figure it out themselves? Maybe, and I could be wrong, but just maybe there would be more people producing similar quality programs if there were a manual or wiki or whatever that explained every parameter in detail. That would almost surely translate into more Nebula customers too. How long would it take to explain what a few parameters do?

Just my 2 cents, as a customer.
MisterE
User Level I
User Level I
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 12:51 pm

Re: Offline sampling questions

Postby giancarlo » Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 pm

hi, sorry for the delay, the question is pretty complex.
First of all you have 3 tones, but forget to sample EA and ER. They are Envelope Attack and Enveloper Release. I never released templates/sessions for compressors, because I want to test them with the betatesting community. But I had a delay on them, so I stopped betatesters. Anyway we are back on this topic. Nat generates EA and ER, but don't use them.

You should check the reason why you can't get this maudio card working. Even if nat supports offline sampling, I don't suggest it at all, everything is harder in that way.

We released nat and nebula with the same concept. Both applications are extremely easy to use, with a gazillion of parameters for experienced users. We never explained those parameters, because they are addressed to nerds, to geeks.

Nebula is extremely straightforward if you use it as suggested. You load it, load a preset and you use it. When something doesn't work (it happens), you describe what's not working, in general the solution is very simple. You tune a "STRANGE" parameter or two, and everything works as supposed to do. For example we tune RATE CNV to a low value. The reason is obvious: loading time is pretty good for programs of the commercial library. If you buy a 3rd party library you read THEIR usermanual, you'll discover you should INCREASE it because we didn't limited nebula, and the 3rd party developer based his work on a different setting. Nothing to fear, you read their usermanual and you increase it. If you did't read the manual you post here, and we'll tell you.

Nat is extremley straightforward too. You load it, you load a session and you push play. That's all. There are a lot of parameters there, but they are NOT addressed to the casual user. If you start sampling, you'll ask how to achieve this or that, and I explain that particular case. Even better: I'll release a session for that, adding to the existing list of sessions. You could be curious, and check the expert settings, and "guess" something. Maybe you could ask something and I could explain it.

Now the question could be: why we don't write a manual. Because the product is NOT meant to be used in a complex way. Parameters are simply exposed for fine tuning, and they are there mainly for nerds, for betatesters. If you need something a little different, and I prepare a session, that's all. You could be a nerd and ANALYZE my parameters. As you could see, you can't analyze everything, because for example templates are ENCRYPTED. They are plain files ONLY for betatesters or library developers. The reason is simple: we are trying to hide the complexity. If I release a manual, the number of questions could be very high, and it would be a nonsense.

All 3rd party developers are incredibly experienced. I can't explain everything here, but they are using better tools and they are fine tuning things, in their case they need a lot of details. For example velinas used for mammoth eq a command line version of nat for windows x64, automating deconvolution using home-made scripts
User avatar
giancarlo
Founder
Founder
 
Posts: 9173
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Offline sampling questions

Postby MisterE » Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:57 pm

OK, I see where you are coming from, but for most Nebula users, sound quality is the main priority. Otherwise they wouldn't be using Nebula in the first place. So, if they decide to go and sample something of theirs at some point, they would probably want the best quality in their program. Some of those parameters in the expert tab, from what I gather, effect the sound quality. But even if I use templates, and I can pick wether to use smooth1 or smooth2 or stone for a 5k preamp program, I don't see anything in any manual telling me which of those sessions to use, let alone about the actual 'hidden geek' parameters themselves. I'm sure that somewhere in the forums the issue is discussed, but I just think you are maybe underestimating the average customer's "geek" level. Sure, I would bet that I am nowhere near as technically inclined as AlexB or the guys at analoginthebox, but I, like a lot of other Nebula users, still like to dig in and try to figure the more advanced features out.

Anyway, OK, I see that you'd rather just adress people's problems as they come up. So, I guess as you pointed out, my problem is getting my card to work online. What can I do to that end? I've already got the A/D/A loop program from nebulaprograms, and made a program that way, loaded it into Christian' VST analyzer and it wasn't pretty. The freq response was not good at all. When I did an offline session, it was closer to being flat (fairly close). I made sure to mute the inputs monitoring so there wouldn't be feedback so I don't get it. I'm going to go ahead and post my online program at nebulaprograms.

btw i love nebula.
MisterE
User Level I
User Level I
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 12:51 pm

Re: Offline sampling questions

Postby MisterE » Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:38 pm

Huh. Nevermind, I try it today, and I get a pretty flat response. I don't really think I have changed anything that should make any difference. The original freq responses I was getting almost looked like there was feedback, but I made sure that everything was muted that needed to be. Oh well, its fine now. Anyway, I'll still post this over at nebula programs.
MisterE
User Level I
User Level I
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 12:51 pm

Re: Offline sampling questions

Postby giancarlo » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:31 am

could you test an external hardware reverb, or something with a wet component? in order to exclude a dry direct monitor from the path
User avatar
giancarlo
Founder
Founder
 
Posts: 9173
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm
Location: Italy

Re: Offline sampling questions

Postby MisterE » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:24 am

Yes, I could. I have a couple of different hardware things that can do reverb. What should I look for/do after I make the program? Just that it has no 'dry' signal?
MisterE
User Level I
User Level I
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 12:51 pm

Re: Offline sampling questions

Postby giancarlo » Sat Jun 12, 2010 12:46 am

yes exactly
User avatar
giancarlo
Founder
Founder
 
Posts: 9173
Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2009 10:40 pm
Location: Italy


Return to Working with Nat

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests