Login

Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Officially Licensed 3rd Party Developer Libraries
Free 3rd Party Programs

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby faun2500 » Wed May 04, 2011 11:08 am

apollo soul wrote:

As for me:

I got someone else to use the word "obfuscating."

My work is done here.


lol, I didn't want to use the word 'obfuscating' for fear of discombobulating' an already perplexing subject! :o


;)
Forthcoming releases on: Black Heart Label, Hyperdrive and Transfixion. http://soundcloud.com/100mg. 6 FREE Downloads on my soundcloud page. Nebula ALL over these trax!
faun2500
Vip Member
Vip Member
 
Posts: 366
Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 1:05 pm

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby TranscendingMusic » Wed May 04, 2011 9:20 pm

ngarjuna mentioned that those who are in the craft of mixing should elevate themselves to come out of the realm of hobbyist. I couldn't agree more with that sentiment. Guys, you won't find an absolute standard for every piece of gear in the real world. During the creation of a preset, unless a dev uses added pads for gain staging, every piece of gear will be slightly different. Why would this be otherwise different within Nebula then? There's a ballpark where presets can be set with the inherent pad parameters but each preset, again, will behave in it's own way. Learn to gain stage for each one. I wouldn't even call it a nuissance. It's part of mixing! Can I be so frank as to say, if you find it to be a nuissance or a general problem, may be it's not your thing :? 8-) No but seriously, these are the general factors in the strive and volition of being an engineer. Understanding the nominal for each one is a different story and a good way to gain stage.
mixing | mastering
Win 10 x64 | Sonar Platinum x64 | 3930K(OC)
User avatar
TranscendingMusic
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:01 am
Location: USA

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby yr » Wed May 04, 2011 9:52 pm

I think you are missing the point altogether- we are not talking about level deviations which are normal (different analog standards or the differences between analog units) but the choice of the 3rd party developers. While AlexB, for instance, uses the -18db=0VU standard, the R2R library is calibrated for 0dBFS. We are talking about huge deviations here that have to do with a given choice and not the sampling process or the nature of the analog source.

Having to consistently gain compensate due to inconsistencies in the way programs were created has nothing to do with the art of mixing. If anything, some professionals are not using Nebula for exactly this kind of reasons.

On a more personal note, I'm a professional not an hobbyist and have owned and used professional tape machines quite extensively in the past. Questioning users credentials any time some aspect of working with Nebula is criticized or questioned is getting a bit old...
Reuven | post-production & sound-design | scenography |
website | nebula presets
User avatar
yr
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby ngarjuna » Wed May 04, 2011 10:07 pm

yr wrote:I think you are missing the point altogether- we are not talking about level deviations which are normal (different analog standards or the differences between analog units) but the choice of the 3rd party developers. While AlexB, for instance, uses the -18db=0VU standard, the R2R library is calibrated for 0dBFS. We are talking about huge deviations here that have to do with a given choice and not the sampling process or the nature of the analog source.

Having to consistently gain compensate due to inconsistencies in the way programs were created has nothing to do with the art of mixing. If anything, some professionals are not using Nebula for exactly this kind of reasons.

On a more personal note, I'm a professional not an hobbyist and have owned and used professional tape machines quite extensively in the past. Questioning users credentials any time some aspect of working with Nebula is criticized or questioned is getting a bit old...


Sampling choice? If you're a working professional who has owned and used professional tape machines quite extensively in the past it should be no news flash to you that every piece of hardware is potentially calibrated to a totally different VU standard. But honestly if you think:

Having to consistently gain compensate due to inconsistencies in the way programs were created has nothing to do with the art of mixing


I seriously wonder about your definition of "extensive" and "professional" because that's not consistent with any of my own experience or any engineers I know from the analog world. I understand (and empathize) with your point that every time someone disagrees they're "hobbyists" but when incomprehensible statements get made (like the notion that gain staging isn't a huge part of mixing) are we supposed to assume that they're just strange beliefs from an otherwise reliable source?

Anyway, the subject of hobbyists came up because people were complaining that Nebula needs to aim itself at the hobbyist market. While that may or may not be a smart decision (depending entirely on what one's goals were), that's the reason the discussion of hobbyists came up at all, it actually wasn't being hurled as an insult (in this thread, at least).

From the other thread on this subject:
Hardware is not all standardized to -18 = 0VU.

Since Nebula is intended to capture those devices at the highest level of integrity it makes sense to leave the gain structure of the various samples as they are (as altering them would indelibly alter the programs themselves).

There are also programs which are very carefully crafted (after the sampling process) gain-wise in order to do specialized jobs (reel to reel programs come to mind); they also don't fit neatly into the -18 = 0VU box sometimes.

This is no different than the kind of pain someone with a good analog studio and lots of hardware would have to go through (except, theoretically, they would also have the pain of hardware meters).


As for the R2R, saying that it's "calibrated to 0dBFS" is a considerably truncated version of the explanation that CDSM gave in a thread (I'll find it and post the link if I can) where he spent a couple pages of text explaining the gain system he used and why he used it (despite the fact that consoles and the like were already being developed at 0VU = -18dBFS); truncated to the point of obfuscation, in fact.

Of course, these are third party libraries; you could just support the developers whose gain staging methodologies meet with your approval/workflow and simply avoid the ones that are wreaking havoc on what you're trying to do.

So really, where does personal choice during sampling come into the fact that all of these hardware devices are calibrated somewhat differently from one another? When a dev makes a choice to preserve sonic integrity over easier gain staging, is that a personal choice or a professional one?

ETA: Here is the link I was thinking of (CDSM's explanation of the gain structure of the R2R programs)
http://www.acustica-audio.com/forum/ind ... topic#p674
Last edited by ngarjuna on Wed May 04, 2011 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
ngarjuna
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Miami

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby TranscendingMusic » Wed May 04, 2011 10:11 pm

yr wrote:I think you are missing the point altogether- we are not talking about level deviations which are normal (different analog standards or the differences between analog units) but the choice of the 3rd party developers. While AlexB, for instance, uses the -18db=0VU standard, the R2R library is calibrated for 0dBFS. We are talking about huge deviations here that have to do with a given choice and not the sampling process or the nature of the analog source.

Having to consistently gain compensate due to inconsistencies in the way programs were created has nothing to do with the art of mixing. If anything, some professionals are not using Nebula for exactly this kind of reasons.

On a more personal note, I'm a professional not an hobbyist and have owned and used professional tape machines quite extensively in the past. Questioning users credentials any time some aspect of working with Nebula is criticized or questioned is getting a bit old...


That was my point actually, creating these presets is all about the gear. Most users of plugins use alogrithmic plugins which can be "artificially" made to work at whatever nominal level. If we standarize a level creating Nebula presets then we're talking about using external padding/gain compensation to create one nominal level per piece of gear. Ultimately if we set out to do that from the start then I suppose its ok, whatever. I personally rather gain stage ITB with a clean digital compensation therefore not adding anything I don't have to add to the gears' actual path. I'm sorry these are not inconsistencies, these are part of the nature of the beasts.
And to add, there is nothing off or inconsistent about any dev's presets. They each happen to have gear that is best used to create these presets at such and such level.
mixing | mastering
Win 10 x64 | Sonar Platinum x64 | 3930K(OC)
User avatar
TranscendingMusic
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1132
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 7:01 am
Location: USA

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby yr » Wed May 04, 2011 10:32 pm

I'm sorry but you are wrong. See parallel thread for instructions as to how to set your R2R library in order to prevent unnecessary (additional) gain stages http://www.acustica-audio.com/forum/ind ... pic#p12489

I've started using professional tape machines in 1989. I've also owned and used Studer/Revox/Akai & Philips tape machines. I still own a nice Nagra III from 1964 which is looking at me as I type this letters.

"ngarjuna" -I can just as easily start questioning your professional knowledge in light of the generalized answers you always seem to provide. In a way similar to the src debate, (most) 3rd party developers and the people behind acustica prove to be much more open minded and forthcoming then some of the users on this forum...
Last edited by yr on Thu May 05, 2011 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reuven | post-production & sound-design | scenography |
website | nebula presets
User avatar
yr
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby ngarjuna » Wed May 04, 2011 10:49 pm

yr wrote:I'm sorry but you are wrong. See parallel thread for instructions as to how to set your R2R library in order to prevent unnecessary (additional) gain stages http://www.acustica-audio.com/forum/ind ... pic#p12489

I've started using professional tape machines in 1989 during my service in an army radio station (1989-1992). I've also owned and used Studer/Revox/Akai & Philips tape machines. I still own a nice Nagra III from 1964 which is looking at me as I type this letters.

I can just as easily start questioning your professional knowledge in light of the generalized answers you always seem to provide. In a way similar to the src debate, (most) 3rd party developers and the people behind acustica prove to be much more open minded and forthcoming then some of the users on this forum...


And you'd be wise to do so; if I (or even just a few) people were the only ones in the world proposing that gain staging is a vital part of mixing, you'd be pretty silly to take that at face value. Likewise, if I were the only person on the internet declaring that SRC is effectively moot today, it would stand as a radical theory.

Since all of the above examples are endorsed widely by big named professionals, you don't even have to worry about taking my word for anything.

So...now answer the question:

Where does personal choice during sampling come into the fact that all of these hardware devices are calibrated somewhat differently from one another? When a dev makes a choice to preserve sonic integrity over easier gain staging, is that a personal choice or a professional one?

And the most important question:
if you had a studio with all of these analog devices in it, do you really think you wouldn't have to adjust for all the gain calibration differences between them? Would you learn to gain stage with your equipment or would you spend time on the Fairchild forums demanding that they adhere to the standards of your F*******e?
User avatar
ngarjuna
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Miami

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby yr » Wed May 04, 2011 11:16 pm

Hi again, you keep going back to the same arguments not really trying to understand what I'm saying. I never said that you can use different libraries as a kind of drop-it and forget-it plug. I also never said that all libraries could be identical in terms of gain staging.

I did say that there are some differences in the way developers program libraries which create additional confusion (call it personal taste on the side of the developers). I believe the instructions that Michael provided in the email regarding the R2R library could help users that enjoy mixing using very moderate levels (and don't like having to boost/cut -12db automatically every time they use R2R).

As for the src thread- I believe the debate actually led to a change with more libraries being sampled at 44.1kHz&96kHz. I can only regard that as a positive change...
Reuven | post-production & sound-design | scenography |
website | nebula presets
User avatar
yr
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby Mercado_Negro » Wed May 04, 2011 11:28 pm

Experience leads to knowledge and knowledge helps to get better results. Gain staging is knowledge which means you have to know what you're gonna use, to use it properly, and that only comes with experience with those particular tools. There are tons of R2R programs that don't sound good at 0dBFS, keep that in mind.

Cheers
i7 3770k :: Asus P8H77-V LE :: 16Gb DDR3 @1600MHz :: Geforce GT 520 :: OCZ-Vertex 128Gb :: WD Black Series 1Tb and Green Series 1Tb :: F*******e Liquid56 :: REAPER 64bit and StudioOne 64bit (both latest versions) :: Win 10 64bit
User avatar
Mercado_Negro
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 1353
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:30 am

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby yr » Thu May 05, 2011 12:01 am

When you are mixing material that has a huge dynamic range you sometimes have the opposite problem- making sure you hit R2R hard enough to get the results you want. Since Nebula only has a maximum of 6dB on the input, it does make sense to edit your R2R programs if you are mixing tracks that never peak above -12db.
Reuven | post-production & sound-design | scenography |
website | nebula presets
User avatar
yr
Beta Tester
Beta Tester
 
Posts: 438
Joined: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:04 am
Location: Amsterdam

PreviousNext

Return to 3rd party libraries

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: richie43 and 6 guests