Login

Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Officially Licensed 3rd Party Developer Libraries
Free 3rd Party Programs

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby enriquesilveti » Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:34 am

You can use SAVE AS in Nebula and create a new N2P file. In addition you can edit the CAT or sub CAT of this new N2P file if you want.
Enrique Silveti.
Acustica Audio customer and technical support.

MBP 11.5 (i7-4870 | 16 GB | 512 SSD)
SP4 (i5-6300 | 8 GB | 256 SSD)
UFX | Lyra2 | USBPre2
VM U16 | VM Win10 CU | VM OSX 10.12
N4/NAT4 | SPX3 | RX6 | LN2C | Smaart8 | R5 | PT12 | PX10 | NIK5
User avatar
enriquesilveti
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2858
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:00 pm
Location: Lodi | Madrid | Buenos Aires

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby apollo soul » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:48 am

So...

I never know what people mean by rms. With freeG as the example... is it the average rms they are seeing over a period of time? The highest held rms on the numeric readout.

I took my best guess the other day and looked for highest held as reported by FreeG for each track... and used that at -18 to feed nebula.

Depending on material, tho... some of them had -12 highest peaks... some had -6 highest peaks. If anything went over -6, I turned it down regardless of rms reading until highest peak was -6 or lower.

So... from the sound of it, Im still a touch hot, no?

I'm still not sure I've got a good rule of thumb for how to translate levels into readouts in FreeG.

And... is there a 64 bit equivalent of FreeG now? The 32 it bridge for so many instances is becoming a hassle.

thx.

apollo
apollo soul
User Level III
User Level III
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:25 am

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby AlexB » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:30 am

Try to use a VU-Meter like PSP Free Vintage Meter and set the 0dBVU to -18dBfs.
Image

It's easy, safe and old school. 8-)
(see the full image)
Close your eyes and Mix with the ears
Facebook
WebSite
User avatar
AlexB
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 623
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:28 pm
Location: NW Italy

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby david1103 » Wed Apr 27, 2011 2:27 pm

the joys of nebula :)

what would be great would be if all developers would agree that -18dbfs RMS is the optimum level to feed their programs for what THEY consider the best level of drive for the average user. when in about the correct -18dbfs RMS range a little green light could show that it had the correct input volume!

now the new 'trim' function could be used. selecting 100% would take it to the limit of distortion, selecting 0% would take it to the minimum amount of drive. it would be default at 50%

this would make it very easy for everyone. maybe the developers could just release a new program file for their existing programs that adjusts their input pad for -18dbfs and enables the new trim command (as giancarlo said they just need to request a new template to recreate the new program file)

i think it could all be done right now with no nebula technology updates (with the omission of the little green light)

i think something like this would make a huge difference. the new trim function is going to be amazing, being able to adjust drive level while keeping the volume the same is MASSIVE!
User avatar
david1103
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:26 am

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby ngarjuna » Wed Apr 27, 2011 3:29 pm

david1103 wrote:the joys of nebula :)

what would be great would be if all developers would agree that -18dbfs RMS is the optimum level to feed their programs for what THEY consider the best level of drive for the average user. when in about the correct -18dbfs RMS range a little green light could show that it had the correct input volume!

now the new 'trim' function could be used. selecting 100% would take it to the limit of distortion, selecting 0% would take it to the minimum amount of drive. it would be default at 50%

this would make it very easy for everyone. maybe the developers could just release a new program file for their existing programs that adjusts their input pad for -18dbfs and enables the new trim command (as giancarlo said they just need to request a new template to recreate the new program file)

i think it could all be done right now with no nebula technology updates (with the omission of the little green light)

i think something like this would make a huge difference. the new trim function is going to be amazing, being able to adjust drive level while keeping the volume the same is MASSIVE!


Really, it's not the joys of Nebula that cause this confusion, it's the joys of people who have no background, experience or knowledge of gain staging trying to use software/equipment that requires knowledge of gain staging to get the best results.

I have no problem with -18 as a Nebula standard but that's only going to solve some of the problem (particularly since, for many of us, -18 is not the local standard for 0VU).
User avatar
ngarjuna
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Miami

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby apollo soul » Wed Apr 27, 2011 4:11 pm

Yes, but A standard would solve much of the problem (which will get much MUCH worse and cause MOST users to misuse the product over time if not addressed)... and a little quickstart information on calibration would solve most of the rest.

I understand the approach of using a vu meter (and despite what their website says, psp vu is NOT available for au), I'm trying to translate that best I can (yes, I know it is a bit of apples and oranges) into numeric values... so that is why I am referring to peak and rms.. because I have numeric readouts for those values.

Just call it personal preference if you like, but I AM in the digital world, and I don't see the point of trying to translate things from numeric values BACK into "fuzzy" math just to make numerical judgements.

So my rule of thumb had been: Max held rms value of -18dbs OR Max held peak of -6... whichever is lower.

I take it some would alter this a bit?
apollo soul
User Level III
User Level III
 
Posts: 37
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2011 12:25 am

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby sfunk » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:08 pm

ngarjuna wrote:
Really, it's not the joys of Nebula that cause this confusion, it's the joys of people who have no background, experience or knowledge of gain staging trying to use software/equipment that requires knowledge of gain staging to get the best results.

I have no problem with -18 as a Nebula standard but that's only going to solve some of the problem (particularly since, for many of us, -18 is not the local standard for 0VU).


Fair point but the issue is this. In the analogue work we have a meter on the piece of equipment, we can see when its hitting 0 its optimum level and we know that anything above this is going to drive it in some way. Great. However the problem with Nebula meters is they are not easy to read and not all developers state that -18dBFS=0vu==4dBU.........or am i missing something? :)
sfunk
Member
Member
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby ngarjuna » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:45 pm

sfunk wrote:
ngarjuna wrote:
Really, it's not the joys of Nebula that cause this confusion, it's the joys of people who have no background, experience or knowledge of gain staging trying to use software/equipment that requires knowledge of gain staging to get the best results.

I have no problem with -18 as a Nebula standard but that's only going to solve some of the problem (particularly since, for many of us, -18 is not the local standard for 0VU).


Fair point but the issue is this. In the analogue work we have a meter on the piece of equipment, we can see when its hitting 0 its optimum level and we know that anything above this is going to drive it in some way. Great. However the problem with Nebula meters is they are not easy to read and not all developers state that -18dBFS=0vu==4dBU.........or am i missing something? :)


No, I think you are correct about this, the meters in Nebula have never really been much help to me. That hasn't proven a make-or-break issue (I find most metering in VSTs to not really be to my personal liking) and I'm used to using a lot of external or third party metering as a result; but certainly not having to use external meters would be a plus for me too.

Since the vast majority of the most popular programs have adhered to the European standard of 0 VU = -18dBFS, it makes sense to me that Nebula could just sort of make this a de facto standard; developers could then have the option to deviate (I suspect there are valid reasons for various programs to not adhere to this standard, although I think they would be a small minority of programs) but, in situations where there was no special case to be concerned about, it would be easy to know where you stand in terms of the gain staging.

My only quibble isn't with the feature request (I see this kind of standardization as logical and useful). My concern is that users might think that gain staging is something that the tools can do for you; and, obviously, I don't agree with that notion. Having a good notion of gain (and, in turn, rudimentary electronics) is just part and parcel of being able to manipulate mixes well.

Making Nebula a tool which reinforces the appropriateness of gain staging in digital (already has happened to at least some degree, the amount of discussion about gain staging that has resulted from Nebula is a big positive in my view) is a good thing. If this sort of standardization furthers that result, I see it as a positive not only for Nebula and its users but for the entire industry of semi-pro/hobbyist mixers. I just hope that end users who are not very educated in these kinds of matters understand that the learning curve is still there even after the tools have been streamlined to assist in making the process more intuitive; or, another way of saying, making the tools more intuitive will make using them to gain stage easier, but you still need to know how gain staging works to pull that off, obviously.
User avatar
ngarjuna
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Miami

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby sfunk » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:53 pm

cool. I think i am going to buy Satsom just for the VU metering. Although i have a feeling this will be introduced to Nebula at some point......Giancarlo care to comment?
sfunk
Member
Member
 
Posts: 226
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:59 pm

Re: Gain Staging AlexB and R2R

Postby ngarjuna » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:49 pm

sfunk wrote:cool. I think i am going to buy Satsom just for the VU metering. Although i have a feeling this will be introduced to Nebula at some point......Giancarlo care to comment?


Me too. Even if Nebula eventually duplicates this (which would be swell), I've seen some sturdy praise for the filters that come on the Satson. I think $40 is cheap as hell for what are (supposedly, I have never heard them) awesome HP/LP filters and a nicely implemented ANSI standardized VU meter (all with low enough CPU to use it a lot) so I won't mind buying it even if it's just for the short term.
User avatar
ngarjuna
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 779
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Miami

PreviousNext

Return to 3rd party libraries

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 11 guests