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Alex: rendering Nebula

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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby everbeatz » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:18 am

hive wrote:"I render files with Nebula over here all the time and it sounds exactly as processed in real time"

well, I'm jealous. what DAW are you using? sample rate/bounce bit rate? are you monitoring carefully at somewhere around K System levels in a treated room on good monitors? and finally, have you bothered to do a null test? I personally favor using my ears over null tests but at any rate, the files dont null.


I'm using Cubase 5 (44k, 24bit) and rendered "product" sounds exactly as when played in real-time. We're talking about depth, dimensionality, deep and wide sound stage which I definitely don't notice it's gone after bouncing. And believe me, I know my monitoring well, also room is not an issue here..
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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby hive » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:52 am

Mercado_Negro wrote:Getting a complete null with Nebula programs is like getting a complete null with hardware: it just won't happen. The more kernels a program has the less nulling you'll get, in theory. Null tests with Nebula are pointless.

If there is a substantial difference between a live output and a rendered file from this output it is your DAW's fault, not Nebula (though you already mentioned that you're not saying this is a technical issue in Nebula itself).

This is just like common reverbs, it won't sound the same each time ;)

Cheers.



I didnt want to put the emphasis on nulling because I do realize this. it's not a "substantial" difference, it's a noticeable difference listening on Focal monitors at K-System levels in a treated room.

the beauty of Nebula is in its subtlety, I think we can all agree on that. my point is that losing some of these wonderful subtleties in a bounce is frustrating. obviously I can bounce and life goes on but I guess the point of this thread was to get people's opinions on the matter and see if there might be better ways to deal with it.

for people that say their bounces are identical to what they hear live, I pose this question...would it sound the same if you bounce a file 100 times, meaning, is there signal degradation at all in a bounce or is it just ones and zeroes and will continue to be the same everytime?
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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby vicnestE » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:13 pm

Did you mean one track or several tracks been rendered??
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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby hive » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:17 pm

vicnestE wrote:Did you mean one track or several tracks been rendered??


I usually find myself bouncing down buss groups because that's where most of my Nebulas sit. is that what you're asking?
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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby everbeatz » Tue Sep 07, 2010 12:19 pm

hive wrote:for people that say their bounces are identical to what they hear live, I pose this question...would it sound the same if you bounce a file 100 times, meaning, is there signal degradation at all in a bounce or is it just ones and zeroes and will continue to be the same everytime?


What do you mean by "signal degradation"?

First of all there's no "signal" in digital if we split hairs on semantics..

Also, do you bounce those tracks ONLY with Nebula processing or there are some other plugins involved?
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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby vicnestE » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:49 pm

hive wrote:
vicnestE wrote:Did you mean one track or several tracks been rendered??


I usually find myself bouncing down buss groups because that's where most of my Nebulas sit. is that what you're asking?

It would help us understand the details if you share your setups.
Upload the "non-null" result audio file and related graphs.

I'd love some tests on alexB's EQ and R2R to see if randomness exists.
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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby Mplay » Tue Sep 07, 2010 4:58 pm

Are you recording any sidechaining on the bus? I used to do that when I just started mixing, and I thought it was signal degridation :)
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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby Mercado_Negro » Tue Sep 07, 2010 5:15 pm

hive wrote:I didnt want to put the emphasis on nulling because I do realize this. it's not a "substantial" difference, it's a noticeable difference listening on Focal monitors at K-System levels in a treated room.

the beauty of Nebula is in its subtlety, I think we can all agree on that. my point is that losing some of these wonderful subtleties in a bounce is frustrating. obviously I can bounce and life goes on but I guess the point of this thread was to get people's opinions on the matter and see if there might be better ways to deal with it.

for people that say their bounces are identical to what they hear live, I pose this question...would it sound the same if you bounce a file 100 times, meaning, is there signal degradation at all in a bounce or is it just ones and zeroes and will continue to be the same everytime?


I don't get a noticeable difference when rendering in REAPER. Yes, I know my monitoring system and I mix using the K-System + a SPL meter in a treated room. It doesn't matter if I render it 1 or 100 times (like someone else posted above, 'signal degradation' is not possible and if you feel there's something wrong I'd definitely try another DAW).

Cheers
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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby AlexB » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:07 pm

Mmmhhh... I hear this degradation by cumulative digital processing due to quantization errors + cumulative VST dithering.. Maybe I'm BatMan :mrgreen:
(oh yes, BatMan was my callsign in the Citizen Band some years ago) :D
Mix with the ears, not with the eyes...
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Re: Alex: rendering Nebula

Postby Mercado_Negro » Tue Sep 07, 2010 6:26 pm

AlexB wrote:Mmmhhh... I hear this degradation by cumulative digital processing due to quantization errors + cumulative VST dithering.. Maybe I'm BatMan :mrgreen:
(oh yes, BatMan was my callsign in the Citizen Band some years ago) :D


Ah, well if you're rendering/freezing to 16bit while working at 24bit or 32/64FP then you'll hear it due to quantization and/or lack of dithering (though yeah, you have to be Batman in this case hahaha). That's why I work at 32FP/48kHz :D

Cheers
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