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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby richie43 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:44 pm

My opinion on this:

I see some major differences between sampling hardware and sampling software. Especially when the sampled results are for sale.
When a dev samples hardware, it emulates the hardware of course. I don't believe that many Nebula users are buying Nebula and Acqua products to replace hardware. Do you really believe that the same person who is shopping for software is also shopping for the hardware alternative? I don't...I could be wrong, but I've talked with many Nebula/Acqua users, and most of us are shopping for the best software we can find, so these purchases are not taking away from a potential hardware purchase.
Sampling software, on the other hand, is a pretty obvious trade-off between the original software and the now sampled version. This would definitely (in my opinion) have a worse impact on a developer.
While Breen's stuff is "free", he has clearly said that if you want more sample rates he will have to get enough "donations" so he can upgrade his own gear. I have nothing personal against Breen, as far as I know he is probably an awesome guy. And the humble beginnings of this community is rooted in user-sampled stuff offered for free to other users, and that spirit is awesome.
But as far as I am concerned, sampling software that is for sale and releasing it for free, while it FEELS like a "good-to-community" thing, is really unethical and should not be done in association with this company and forum. Acustica has won a few major battles in the last few years in regards to image, PR, and product quality/consistency. Even a misunderstanding regarding "ethics" that is associated with Acustica could undermine and reverse some of their hard work (again, IN MY OPINION...I can't state that enough).
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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby botus99 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:53 pm

jfjer379@gmail.com wrote:don't Alex explain exactly what HW his stuff is based on under the pictures of his samplings ?
yes he do and im 150% sure Alex know the law , and im very happy we can see what HW is sampled on his site :)

i rest my case


The sampling of software and hardware are different IMO. Do you not agree? The "case" isn't that simple, because hardware does not equal software. It's fine to be passionate, but if you truly believe that it is that simple, I must disagree.

jfjer379@gmail.com wrote:i still don't think sampling software is worse than sampling HW until i see some hard proof on that its illegal to do so

and i don't want to argue over this anymore since no one actually have any proof that this is worse than sampling HW


We don't have to argue. Discussing is fine though :lol: I just have a hard time imagining that it is always ok to sample another plugin. In some cases, like a simple eq curve that could be made with any EQ plugin, it could be considered fair game IMO. But, sampling a plugin with it's own proprietary algorithm (say a Sonic Maximizer or a limiter with lots of bells and whistles unseen in other plugin limiters) also could be seen as nefarious.

Unfortunately, this situation does not appear as black and white to me. This is why it seems its worth discussing.
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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby botus99 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:56 pm

Gotta say that I really agree with all points you pointed out Richie ;)
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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby giancarlo » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:00 pm

I'm not sure about the situation about sampling software.
I'm not a lawyer, but when you sample something based on impulse responses it is possible you are deriving the same exact impulse responses used by the developer, so at the end of the day it could be configured as reverse engineering.

To be honest we avoided it in the past even if it was easy to do (we did for an UAD preamp in early 2007, than we stopped, hardware was soooo much better). Even today we try to create units which are not perfectly matched but are improved in several ways, in order to try to not damage anyone. We try to build units, or to ask for endorsements.
In our last year we are trying also to modify the visuals, since an hardware developer was not happy about it. But we never advertised the sound as nailed, we tried to modify and improve it, or to change it, or to mix different devices when possible, unless patents are expired (because very old products).
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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby richie43 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:03 pm

botus99 wrote:Gotta say that I really agree with all points you pointed out Richie ;)


The tricky part about this is that I think my FEELINGS are right, but that does not make this thing a LEGAL issue. I have some extensive experience in product placement, marketing, and trademark/copyright issues (mostly audio related but not exclusively). And there is nothing about this so far that is OBVIOUSLY illegal. That's why I am keeping my comments to more "ethical" and "potential" issues.
Regardless of whether or not anyone has broken any laws, it feels like a disrespectful action and I personally wish that this "community" stayed away from things like this...just my opinion. The risk is that if it is illegal, it would instantly imply some unnecessary complications to a company that has worked very hard to simplify and provide an awesome line of product.
Ok...enough of my opinion.....flame on...

:)
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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby RJHollins » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:08 pm

as mentioned ...

the same issue could be raised regarding WAVES CLONE. For better or worse, it has been out for many years ... can 'clone' hardware or software. Clone libraries have been distributed.
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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby giancarlo » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:16 pm

yes agreed. Anyway we are a different company.
I repeat, I'm not sure about the legal side of it.
There are even companies using full names, and reporting brand names in their websites, with a little disclaimer telling you "we are not affiliated".

But as company we try to provide a different message: we could inspired, but we try to do something different. For sure our gui or our emulations are not 100% of the target product, and we never say "we could replace it". A lot of hardware was cloned by other hardware.

Anyway, said that, a different company would use our tech maybe in a worse way, explaining they were nailing this or that.
We are way cheaper when we simply sample an hardware. The difficult is to use our tech for doing something new.
My first 2 cents.
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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby xabilon » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:49 pm

Hi

Im my opinion it is far less simplistic than "sampling hardware = ok / sampling software = not ok".

What about the L*****n PCM96 digital reverb ? Is it legal and/or ethical to sample the hardware unit ? Is it legal and/or ethical to sample the L*****n PCM plugins ? They are nearly the same.

Well, these are only samples, they're not reverse engineering or algorithm copying.
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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby jfjer379@gmail.com » Fri Mar 25, 2016 9:20 pm

xabilon wrote:Hi

Im my opinion it is far less simplistic than "sampling hardware = ok / sampling software = not ok".

What about the L*****n PCM96 digital reverb ? Is it legal and/or ethical to sample the hardware unit ? Is it legal and/or ethical to sample the L*****n PCM plugins ? They are nearly the same.

Well, these are only samples, they're not reverse engineering or algorithm copying.



i agree
this was actually a very good example
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Re: Mix On Headphones

Postby jfjer379@gmail.com » Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:24 pm

botus99 wrote:

We don't have to argue. Discussing is fine though :lol: I just have a hard time imagining that it is always ok to sample another plugin. In some cases, like a simple eq curve that could be made with any EQ plugin, it could be considered fair game IMO. But, sampling a plugin with it's own proprietary algorithm (say a Sonic Maximizer or a limiter with lots of bells and whistles unseen in other plugin limiters) also could be seen as nefarious.

Unfortunately, this situation does not appear as black and white to me. This is why it seems its worth discussing.



there are small companies i would like to keep around that need our support to survive
those i wouldn't touch personally this is something i use and i want them to have an income to develop more good stuff, small companies like valhalla, dsp, klanghelm, Boz digital and more

i think what me and Bassari really disagreed the most on was if it was illegal to sample software or not
i think its not illegal

but sampling of a software is very dependable of what the software is, and whats usable for Nebula to sample

so what is morally right to sample or not of the software hehe
not as easy as i thought when i think about it without being in arguing mode

but i think the L*****n PCM96 hw vs software was a good example

my morals about sonarworks regular headset calibration dropped because they don't give 2 licenses like most companies do

well all can judge me, but if im not breaking the law
and i already own a copy and the nebula sample is offering lower latency and cpu usage i must admit its tempting

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