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Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ???

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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby richie43 » Tue May 13, 2014 5:37 am

I guess I view it as a best of both worlds. These are software emulations of hardware, but still not hardware (you know that, right...? You said that you were old, so I am wondering about delusional...ha ha). I still think that Michael is eliminating most of the possibility of abusing it. All it takes is one person to blow a speaker or ruin a song and they try to blame the software, whether or not it is fair or rational is irrelevant sometimes. And in regards to altering them, many physical items we purchase in the world will void their warrantees if the item is tampered with......
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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby RJHollins » Tue May 13, 2014 6:15 am

yah ... i know ...

I cut the warning label off an extension cord last nite.

Nothing like 'Living on the Edge'. :shock:
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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby richie43 » Tue May 13, 2014 6:24 pm

RJHollins wrote:yah ... i know ...

I cut the warning label off an extension cord last nite.

Nothing like 'Living on the Edge'. :shock:

You want to know living on the edge??
I went as far as removing ALL of the "do not remove this label" warnings on ALL of my pillows and mattresses!! That's right, I am out there.
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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby Sheikyearbouti » Wed May 14, 2014 1:36 am

Man, when teaching at college I spend a lot of my time trying to establish some decent gain staging habits in my students. Out converters are calibrated mostly according to the EBU -18dBFS standard. I show youngsters what it means to drive a console and what is it to keep things clean, and why they should avoid digital clipping - I expect the same from them when using Nebula.

It is actually very easy to demo the drawbacks of over-modulation with consoles that can handle up to 26dBU - just compare the off-bus clean and off-tape clipped mixes - even the guys with Beats headphones get it immediately. I realise that not all Nebula customers have audio related education, so kudos to David for his video on gain staging.

It is a different matter if you want to provide flexibility - for example, some of the STN programs come at different calibration standards and I really like that.
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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby RJHollins » Wed May 14, 2014 3:03 am

Sheikyearbouti wrote:Man, when teaching at college I spend a lot of my time trying to establish some decent gain staging habits in my students. Out converters are calibrated mostly according to the EBU -18dBFS standard. I show youngsters what it means to drive a console and what is it to keep things clean, and why they should avoid digital clipping - I expect the same from them when using Nebula.

It is actually very easy to demo the drawbacks of over-modulation with consoles that can handle up to 26dBU - just compare the off-bus clean and off-tape clipped mixes - even the guys with Beats headphones get it immediately. I realise that not all Nebula customers have audio related education, so kudos to David for his video on gain staging.

It is a different matter if you want to provide flexibility - for example, some of the STN programs come at different calibration standards and I really like that.

I concur 100% Sheikyearbouti. I shared your same teaching philosophy when I did my college teaching stint [adjunct].
8-)
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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby deehope » Wed May 14, 2014 10:11 am

wait... is this for all of Micheal's libraries??? Including the comp preamps? Man have I barely been hitting his stuff. I've never pushed it past -18db peaks. So if I'm understanding this correctly, for someone like me who records vocals and all none percussive instruments peaking at -18db and drums peaking at -11, to get the full effect of Micheal's libraries i'd have to use a trim plug and push the instrument up to the -6db to -0db range and then use the nebula output to trim it back down to the level i want after going through his preset?
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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby kylen » Wed May 14, 2014 1:48 pm

There's some great advice for getting the best sound from Richie (via the gs link):

"If you use lower levels, you should expect a cleaner analog signal. If you want more juice, increase the input and lower the output by the same amount."

After purchasing Henry's all-you-can-eat and getting some use out of GDrive (input/output level link) I've been going back to many other Nebula libraries and trying to find the sweet spot when inserting on a bus. Before I had just been putting a plugin, like FreeG, and making sure I gain staged for approx -18dbfs rms and also make sure the nebula overs light didn't kick in. Now I'm increasing input and lowering output (or changing GDRV if the preset has it) and listening. I think there's another world between gain staging at -18 and finding the sweet spot... :shock:

...and as has been alluded too, I always have a protection limiter (TB Barricade for me) set on my master in case nebula freaks out and sends a transient down to my speakers - it can happen.
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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby david1103 » Wed May 14, 2014 2:19 pm

I covered a lot about this in Nebula Explained, maybe I will upload a few free sections to Youtube.

Your RMS level must be enough to trigger the dynamic layers for a 3d sound, and then its to taste for how much harmonic distortion you require before the sound gets overload artifacts.

Best results are if you have the GDRIVE enabled in the program (sometimes it has it, sometimes you can add it yourself in NAT). You should hear when the dynamic layers kick in raising it from the lowest to the highest level.

Hearing the distortion is frequency dependent, so different sources may seem to have different levels of distortion.

Some people say there is not much distortion in Nebula... depends on the program! I measured quite a few programs next to the default level of the SlickEQ (TDR/Variety Of Sound) and Nebula usually had more.

All AlexB is -18dBFS, other developers have different ideas.

It really is a matter of taste once you have the input level sufficient to trigger the dynamic layers, just be careful to listen to the whole track if you run it hot in case you trigger an artifact.
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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby pleplo » Wed May 14, 2014 2:39 pm

david1103 wrote:I covered a lot about this in Nebula Explained, maybe I will upload a few free sections to Youtube.

Your RMS level must be enough to trigger the dynamic layers for a 3d sound, and then its to taste for how much harmonic distortion you require before the sound gets overload artifacts.

Best results are if you have the GDRIVE enabled in the program (sometimes it has it, sometimes you can add it yourself in NAT). You should hear when the dynamic layers kick in raising it from the lowest to the highest level.

Hearing the distortion is frequency dependent, so different sources may seem to have different levels of distortion.

Some people say there is not much distortion in Nebula... depends on the program! I measured quite a few programs next to the default level of the SlickEQ (TDR/Variety Of Sound) and Nebula usually had more.

All AlexB is -18dBFS, other developers have different ideas.

It really is a matter of taste once you have the input level sufficient to trigger the dynamic layers, just be careful to listen to the whole track if you run it hot in case you trigger an artifact.


Awesome info David thanks :)
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Re: Are there any Devs or Libraries that DON'T USE -18dbfs ?

Postby kylen » Wed May 14, 2014 6:20 pm

david1103 wrote:It really is a matter of taste once you have the input level sufficient to trigger the dynamic layers, just be careful to listen to the whole track if you run it hot in case you trigger an artifact.

Great info David.
Anyone who has attempted to find the sweetspot in Nebula would certainly appreciate some kind of "metering" in that area...histogram or whatever telling me how many of the dynamic layers I've touched to get the real Nebula experience - or if I'm not hitting it hard enough a nice alert telling me I'm wasting my time and the essence of Nebula!!! 8-)
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