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LA2A?

Postby russianpolecat » Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:27 am

Hi, I know that there are some preamp versions of this classic compressor by a few different devs, which is great. I was just wondering the reasons why this hasn't been done in a complete version yet - pre and compressor. This and the 1176 are two of the most famous pieces of hardware gear, so one would've thought it would've been done by now. Just curious really - is there a particular problem with this compressor that precludes it from being done? (Neb wise that is).

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Re: LA2A?

Postby richie43 » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:41 am

The La2a is what is called "program dependent", it changes it's compression behavior very quickly depending on the input signal. Nebula needs parameters to work with, I don't think it "does" true program dependent behavior. Maybe a brilliant dev will answer this better......
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Re: LA2A?

Postby lipa » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:06 pm

Mr Cupwise has done some breakthrough in capturing the release of compressors.. Creamy 660 is the first one to have that employed. I don't remember if it has anything to do with program dependent stuff but this comp really sounds different than other nebula comps. More juicy and more musical shall I say? Hey Cupwise, please do some other comps, or maybe there are plans to rerelease Slick (S*L) or Smooth bus (N**e) with new release behaviour? Sorry for offtopic.. or maybe a LA2A? :P
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Re: LA2A?

Postby russianpolecat » Mon Feb 24, 2014 12:05 am

richie43 wrote:The La2a is what is called "program dependent", it changes it's compression behavior very quickly depending on the input signal. Nebula needs parameters to work with, I don't think it "does" true program dependent behavior. Maybe a brilliant dev will answer this better......
Tim Wisecup....Tim Petherick.....Michael Angel.....Alex......Bob......Eric.......Henry......

I understand this, but doesn't nebula work in relation to many dynamic layers? Couldn't it be the case of, almost like 0/1's (if this, then this)? In other words, if the input is at a certain level, it triggers a particular dynamic layer/behaviour? Obviously it isn't as simple as that otherwise it would've been done, but y'know what I mean ;). I suppose the major problem is the number of different colours/behaviours you could get out of it, and the amount of samples you would need to get an accurate representation of the hardware. A mammoth task.
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Re: LA2A?

Postby cdsoundmaster » Mon Feb 24, 2014 11:54 am

Hi there,

The full truth cannot be answered in a short explanation, but Rich has covered the essentials.

What is captured in the CDS LA2A collection is every bit of the device's behavior that you are not going to get from any non-Nebula emulation. What is valuable about this- not just with the LA2A but other compressors- is that they have very strong character traits at every change of every position. The emulations, even from the best companies and best programmers, generalize many of these changes into an imaginary schematic- or process- that is math-based only.

Yes, 1176 and La2/A are always considered the two most recognized famous comps for a company to add to their line. But- the 1176 is famous for its sound as producing response that is extremely fast- and simultaneously creates a lot of pleasant messiness. Most natural analog sound waves do not respond extremely well to fast compression with deep threshold response. LA2A has a gazillion different representations of its "classic" sound, Much of the response is photo-cell- which can be timed to respond differently to different material- but is typically a slow response- which has a very pleasant sound. But- it is always responding to the input material- even when slamming levels in limiter mode- the response is similar to bouncing up and down with the waves of an ocean. When a big wave comes along- it takes longer to even itself out for the next wave- and when lots of small waves come along- it tends to remain more "always open and compressing" smaller faster actions.

It is true- program dependent response is a large part of why there is not perfect emulator OR NebPro compression for something like the LA2A. The 1176 is faster than even a good emulation can actually replicate- so upsampling and other techniques are used to fake the fast response. With NebPro- compression is created by accurately reading sound that comes into the inputs- and if this is faster than the Neb engine can interpret- even the engine is not going to pretend it correctly- so creating an 1176 compressor this way doesn't make sense.

But, what NebPro does amazingly well- and this the type of dynamics that you are referring to- is the measurement of accurate response- meaning that if you focus on what changes over time- other than compression- you have frequency response and harmonic distortion- in real time- over many layers of volume changes. This means that if you set the real 1176, LA2A, or any compressor device- to a setting- and run it through this type of "preamp" program that is recording dynamics, frequency, and harmonics, all at once, and you record this correctly, and then match the response to get the same reading as analog, you get something much better than the emulators on their own. Add this to the front or end of the chain of an algo-1176 or LA2A- and it is like hearing the missing dimension.

There are a LOT of things that you can edit under the hood in NebPro. With compression- it acts more like an editing engine than it does with harmonics and frequency. Once it gets an accurate read on the timing of the signal- if can be edited to handle things in different modes and with different response. These things can be "messed with" to sound similar to a lot of devices. I found that the 1176 could actually be replicated nicely, similar to something another developer had mentioned at one time- but only on its slowest setting (even this was a surprise bc its slowest setting is still really fast). But, you cannot build a compression library out of only one response. I like viewing NebPro as focusing on its strengths, which FAR outshine the small handful of things that can be done better in other ways.

I have a lot of compression "stuff" coming this year, and some of it is a completely unique process I developed that went into the VTM-M2. By thinking outside the box with algo-based compression- there are still other approaches that I think work better than simply algo- but even then, the combination of use with something that captures the feel and vibe of the electronics like NebPro is unmatched with anything other than a room full of analog gear.

The last thing I would say about this is...
Mix and Match! :-)
Something like an 1176, LA2A, or Distressor preamp collection in NebPro can be used even with freebie compressors and limiters found on KVR (NOT cracks- good free vst's). Adding the real electronics into the chain brings out the best even in otherwise fairly simple sounding compression algo's.

Those small layers of subtle harmonic changes are what tells our ears something is going on with the transformers, tubes, op-amps, and everything nice.


russianpolecat wrote:
richie43 wrote:The La2a is what is called "program dependent", it changes it's compression behavior very quickly depending on the input signal. Nebula needs parameters to work with, I don't think it "does" true program dependent behavior. Maybe a brilliant dev will answer this better......
Tim Wisecup....Tim Petherick.....Michael Angel.....Alex......Bob......Eric.......Henry......

I understand this, but doesn't nebula work in relation to many dynamic layers? Couldn't it be the case of, almost like 0/1's (if this, then this)? In other words, if the input is at a certain level, it triggers a particular dynamic layer/behaviour? Obviously it isn't as simple as that otherwise it would've been done, but y'know what I mean ;). I suppose the major problem is the number of different colours/behaviours you could get out of it, and the amount of samples you would need to get an accurate representation of the hardware. A mammoth task.
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Re: LA2A?

Postby Tim Petherick » Mon Feb 24, 2014 1:56 pm

lipa wrote:Mr Cupwise has done some breakthrough in capturing the release of compressors.. Creamy 660 is the first one to have that employed. I don't remember if it has anything to do with program dependent stuff but this comp really sounds different than other nebula comps. More juicy and more musical shall I say? Hey Cupwise, please do some other comps, or maybe there are plans to rerelease Slick (S*L) or Smooth bus (N**e) with new release behaviour? Sorry for offtopic.. or maybe a LA2A? :P


Cal dl1656 , I came up with a way to get a sort of auto release sound which was completely unique back in June?! 8-)

Emulating the sound release getting longer on as note gets longer I believe is what we are trying to emulate with a la2a here. Which is similar to auto release. Although what I did is not strictly doing this only just capturing a approximation of what it sounds like at low gain reductions
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Re: LA2A?

Postby russianpolecat » Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:20 pm

Hi Michael. Thanks for that explanation! As I mentioned and you confirmed, the 1176 and the LA2A are (along with the Fairchild) the MOST famous compressors in history so if it was possible with the current neb technology it would've been done already. I can see that it is very difficult to get 'true' emulations of these pieces of gear, and therefore the closest we can get is a mojo at this moment. Hopefully the technology can be improved to allow this to be the case in the near future. Having said that, as has been posted here and elsewhere, neb compression has come a long way in the last yr or so and a few libraries are starting to sound really convincing. As a vintage gear nut (and N**e head in particular :)) it would be great if one of the devs could do a 'new' version of the N**e 2254 ;). Other wish list stuff would be TG12413 (or C******r version) and Altec's etc. I presume there might be similar problems with some of this stuff as with the LA2A though, but we can but hope ;)
cdsoundmaster wrote:Hi there,

The full truth cannot be answered in a short explanation, but Rich has covered the essentials.

What is captured in the CDS LA2A collection is every bit of the device's behavior that you are not going to get from any non-Nebula emulation. What is valuable about this- not just with the LA2A but other compressors- is that they have very strong character traits at every change of every position. The emulations, even from the best companies and best programmers, generalize many of these changes into an imaginary schematic- or process- that is math-based only.

Yes, 1176 and La2/A are always considered the two most recognized famous comps for a company to add to their line. But- the 1176 is famous for its sound as producing response that is extremely fast- and simultaneously creates a lot of pleasant messiness. Most natural analog sound waves do not respond extremely well to fast compression with deep threshold response. LA2A has a gazillion different representations of its "classic" sound, Much of the response is photo-cell- which can be timed to respond differently to different material- but is typically a slow response- which has a very pleasant sound. But- it is always responding to the input material- even when slamming levels in limiter mode- the response is similar to bouncing up and down with the waves of an ocean. When a big wave comes along- it takes longer to even itself out for the next wave- and when lots of small waves come along- it tends to remain more "always open and compressing" smaller faster actions.

It is true- program dependent response is a large part of why there is not perfect emulator OR NebPro compression for something like the LA2A. The 1176 is faster than even a good emulation can actually replicate- so upsampling and other techniques are used to fake the fast response. With NebPro- compression is created by accurately reading sound that comes into the inputs- and if this is faster than the Neb engine can interpret- even the engine is not going to pretend it correctly- so creating an 1176 compressor this way doesn't make sense.

But, what NebPro does amazingly well- and this the type of dynamics that you are referring to- is the measurement of accurate response- meaning that if you focus on what changes over time- other than compression- you have frequency response and harmonic distortion- in real time- over many layers of volume changes. This means that if you set the real 1176, LA2A, or any compressor device- to a setting- and run it through this type of "preamp" program that is recording dynamics, frequency, and harmonics, all at once, and you record this correctly, and then match the response to get the same reading as analog, you get something much better than the emulators on their own. Add this to the front or end of the chain of an algo-1176 or LA2A- and it is like hearing the missing dimension.

There are a LOT of things that you can edit under the hood in NebPro. With compression- it acts more like an editing engine than it does with harmonics and frequency. Once it gets an accurate read on the timing of the signal- if can be edited to handle things in different modes and with different response. These things can be "messed with" to sound similar to a lot of devices. I found that the 1176 could actually be replicated nicely, similar to something another developer had mentioned at one time- but only on its slowest setting (even this was a surprise bc its slowest setting is still really fast). But, you cannot build a compression library out of only one response. I like viewing NebPro as focusing on its strengths, which FAR outshine the small handful of things that can be done better in other ways.

I have a lot of compression "stuff" coming this year, and some of it is a completely unique process I developed that went into the VTM-M2. By thinking outside the box with algo-based compression- there are still other approaches that I think work better than simply algo- but even then, the combination of use with something that captures the feel and vibe of the electronics like NebPro is unmatched with anything other than a room full of analog gear.

The last thing I would say about this is...
Mix and Match! :-)
Something like an 1176, LA2A, or Distressor preamp collection in NebPro can be used even with freebie compressors and limiters found on KVR (NOT cracks- good free vst's). Adding the real electronics into the chain brings out the best even in otherwise fairly simple sounding compression algo's.

Those small layers of subtle harmonic changes are what tells our ears something is going on with the transformers, tubes, op-amps, and everything nice.


russianpolecat wrote:
richie43 wrote:The La2a is what is called "program dependent", it changes it's compression behavior very quickly depending on the input signal. Nebula needs parameters to work with, I don't think it "does" true program dependent behavior. Maybe a brilliant dev will answer this better......
Tim Wisecup....Tim Petherick.....Michael Angel.....Alex......Bob......Eric.......Henry......

I understand this, but doesn't nebula work in relation to many dynamic layers? Couldn't it be the case of, almost like 0/1's (if this, then this)? In other words, if the input is at a certain level, it triggers a particular dynamic layer/behaviour? Obviously it isn't as simple as that otherwise it would've been done, but y'know what I mean ;). I suppose the major problem is the number of different colours/behaviours you could get out of it, and the amount of samples you would need to get an accurate representation of the hardware. A mammoth task.
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Re: LA2A?

Postby lipa » Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:44 pm

Tim Petherick wrote:Cal dl1656 , I came up with a way to get a sort of auto release sound which was completely unique back in June?! 8-)


Sorry, didn't mean to disrespect anyone.. I guess I have to check that cal comp soon. :oops:
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Re: LA2A?

Postby Tim Petherick » Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:13 pm

lipa wrote:
Tim Petherick wrote:Cal dl1656 , I came up with a way to get a sort of auto release sound which was completely unique back in June?! 8-)


Sorry, didn't mean to disrespect anyone.. I guess I have to check that cal comp soon. :oops:


Hey,
I didn't find it disrespectful..... It's cool, I wasn't , just thought I would say ;)

I'm not sure if we took the same approach in getting the effect! 8-)

All the best
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Re: LA2A?

Postby jpchartrand » Wed Feb 26, 2014 4:07 pm

I'm confused...is there a really good La2a library that captures all of the behavior? or not?
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