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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby everbeatz » Mon Aug 02, 2010 11:37 pm

Ok, I'm glad I've got info about 6 line ins, thanx.

We still miss various random phase shifts and crosstalk happening across channels which plays a big part of the console sound...everything accumulates at the end

Also, I'm curious about distortion values or how hard you can drive the Nebula console?

Were eqs and compressors and their color taken into consideration when sampling a console channel?

I think what could be a future for Nebula developers is to consider making a console channel strip with all parameters on one place, one GUI, one program so to say.

Try sampling/emulating 30-something channel console with all parameters involved and then we can realize how distant we are from a proper digital console modeling ...
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby ngarjuna » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:04 am

Also, I'm curious about distortion values or how hard you can drive the Nebula console?


I think this depends on the developer. AlexB consoles all set 0VU = -18dBFS. CDSoundmaster's consoles are different; he explained it to me in an email once, I'll see if I can find it. And I'm not certain about the AITB console, I still need to add that to the collection. Anyway, my understanding is that you can drive them similar to the original analog units within the tolerances intended by the developers.

Were eqs and compressors and their color taken into consideration when sampling a console channel?


This depends on the developer. CDSoundmaster provides versions of the channels with the EQ engaged (but flat) and not engaged.

I think what could be a future for Nebula developers is to consider making a console channel strip with all parameters on one place, one GUI, one program so to say.


I think the limiting factor here is computer resources. Each parameter you add increases the number of samples required by a lot. Once there are computer resources that could handle it, I think the current engine could actually facilitate such programs; just nobody can run them now because they would be so heavy.

Try sampling/emulating 30-something channel console with all parameters involved and then we can realize how distant we are from a proper digital console modeling ...


I would love to see expansion packages of the current consoles with just more channels, I'd probably buy some of them. Undoubtedly increasing the number of sampled channels in a package would impact the price significantly.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby everbeatz » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:18 am

ngarjuna wrote:
I think what could be a future for Nebula developers is to consider making a console channel strip with all parameters on one place, one GUI, one program so to say.


I think the limiting factor here is computer resources. Each parameter you add increases the number of samples required by a lot. Once there are computer resources that could handle it, I think the current engine could actually facilitate such programs; just nobody can run them now because they would be so heavy.



I totally agree - computers are still not capable to faithfully reconstruct real-world processes - resources lack. Personally I think it's never going to happen cos nature's non-linear processes can't be described with math apparatus we know, but now I'm drifting into the philosophical realm...next time maybe :| :D

Nebula is definitely bringing something great on the table and when I look at the market with all those plugs that claim to do what's really not achievable right now what a man can say.. ;)
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby prosodio » Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:41 am

This consoles are unbelivable (alexb and cdsoundmaster) use them with alexb panner and tape and those great eqs.. and you are very close to use the real deal, for sure... the panner is a very important thing here, use it.

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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby farjedi » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:05 pm

ngarjuna wrote:If you're looking for the greatest classic consoles of all time to destroy your audio with weird coloration, then yes the consoles are probably the wrong solution for you.

If you're looking for plasticky, gimmicky coloration that is easily audible, you wouldn't be any more likely to get that effect running your audio through an old N**e console than you're going to get it running your audio through well sampled old N**e console programs.

And no, just because something sounds easily noticeable doesn't mean it sounds good. There's a wide gap between "I can hear the effect" and "That's gonna sound awesome summed up on every channel" (and, in my experience, it's extremely rare that both of those two statements are concurrently true).


Sorry mate I don't know what music you make or listen to, but all of my favourite records are evidently analog in their coloration. I may not be the greatest engineer or golden eared wonder boy but there is a big gap between Nebula's saturation and 'real world' use IMO. It is evident from listening to released material I like that they abuse saturation, I've read famous hiphop engineers drive the drums through S*L preamps cos they like the power it gives the drums, or letting the master buss go into the red cos how the bass reacts to that..etc..etc..etc..
No one is suggesting that every track must be treated with heavy coloration or saturation, it is an important effect however. Judging from my favourite records the engineers where not afraid to use it. And why would they analog distortion sounds great..
Would be nice for a non plasticky digital alternative...
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby ngarjuna » Tue Aug 03, 2010 2:17 pm

farjedi wrote:Sorry mate I don't know what music you make or listen to, but all of my favourite records are evidently analog in their coloration. I may not be the greatest engineer or golden eared wonder boy but there is a big gap between Nebula's saturation and 'real world' use IMO. It is evident from listening to released material I like that they abuse saturation, I've read famous hiphop engineers drive the drums through S*L preamps cos they like the power it gives the drums, or letting the master buss go into the red cos how the bass reacts to that..etc..etc..etc..
No one is suggesting that every track must be treated with heavy coloration or saturation, it is an important effect however. Judging from my favourite records the engineers where not afraid to use it. And why would they analog distortion sounds great..
Would be nice for a non plasticky digital alternative...


Right...like you are agreeing...it's a special effect, it's not something you'd expect a classic console to be applying grossly to every track. There are plenty of tools, including other Nebula programs, to dirty up your audio; the consoles just may not be your best bet and/or you may have to drive them hard to get that effect.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby AlexB » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:09 pm

I have drawn near to Nebula because I saw the potentiality to emulate a console. What it missed in the world of the plugins was a true console emulation. So I began to experiment the sampling with Nat3 and I have pushed Giancarlo to improve the sampling to 96kHz since I would not have accepted a lower quality sample rate.
And I thanks to Giancarlo to have made this fantastic technology available for us.
It's very easy to give you a very warm, colored and saturated console sound to impress the potential buyer.... But: why ? Professionals know that the console is not an effect but simply a mixer. It may sum the signals and give a mojo, better if it gives natural,clean, 3d holographic sound.
Now if you want more color from the console, you can drive the input stage using the input fader into nebula plugin. That's all. Even Rupert N**e says that he was wondered that some people love to drive the stage to achieve the distorted sound by his consoles when he have projected them as cleanest and musical possible !

In my audio example I have used some very bad tracks, originally recorded at 44.1kHz/16bit with only Digidesign192 and very flat. I have upsampled these horrible things and mixed with only a little EQ and comp. by S****x plugs. No more. I can hear the console sound clearly, someone is more fat, someone is more warm, someone is more clean and open... But not distorted or highly colored... If you want this... Well I can try to find a Marshall-console :mrgreen:

What you can clearly hear, better with studio monitor and not headphone, is the more 3D and open stereo image with every instrument in his place, compared to congested, digital harsh mix. BUT if you love MP3, iPod and fake instrument (vsti guitars, piano, winds) probably you'll prefer the ITB mix than Nebula mix (as some harsh vst eq) :?

I think this: people should do serious listen training as suggested from ngarjuna.
I have learned this when I studied in the conservatory. We listened to an orchestra to closed eyes and we had to guess what instrument was playing (hey, this is easy: a flute sounds as a flute!), in what place it was playing (for example before or behind the piano, or at side to the violin...) and what notes it was played.... And this for every instrument! Fortunately it was easy for me to say what notes were playing when the professor put a casual accord to 10 fingers on the piano. 8-)

I know that my console aren't perfect or exactly as the original hardware, but they are very close and very musical. Some engineers like the fact that these emulations haven't crosstalk and noise floor. I prefer to sample the single circuit stage, normally I put a probe in the circuit to sampling the wanted stage only and not the whole channel strip. I sample the line and mic input without eq or comp circuit to avoid too fake-coloration, because you can add this color and function with other nebula libraries or vst plugin.

So, IMHO : if you can't hear the console's sound perhaps you may better to add this sound at your production because other people can hear the difference... If you want a more finished pro sound :mrgreen:
BUT listen training is the key 8-)
Mix with the ears, not with the eyes...
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby zaminx » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:18 pm

I gotta Agree with Alex if your not hearing it then its probably best to avoid it.I can certainly here a big difference and the sense of space is much better with the console emulations.now I have worked on many consoles over the years so I have a lot of experience with how each one sounds and reacts and I approach the Nebula emulations the same way.A big key is gain staging and I spend a lot of time listening to how each Mic or line input reacts with the source.the Nebula rendering tool is great but for me I like to listen and adjust each instance of Nebula and this makes a huge difference just like it would on a real console.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby AlexB » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:26 pm

zaminx wrote:A big key is gain staging and I spend a lot of time listening to how each Mic or line input reacts with the source.the Nebula rendering tool is great but for me I like to listen and adjust each instance of Nebula and this makes a huge difference just like it would on a real console.


Totally true !
Mix with the ears, not with the eyes...
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby highvoltage » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:46 pm

farjedi wrote: Sorry mate I don't know what music you make or listen to, but all of my favourite records are evidently analog in their coloration. I may not be the greatest engineer or golden eared wonder boy but there is a big gap between Nebula's saturation and 'real world' use IMO. It is evident from listening to released material I like that they abuse saturation, I've read famous hiphop engineers drive the drums through S*L preamps cos they like the power it gives the drums, or letting the master buss go into the red cos how the bass reacts to that..etc..etc..etc..
No one is suggesting that every track must be treated with heavy coloration or saturation, it is an important effect however. Judging from my favourite records the engineers where not afraid to use it. And why would they analog distortion sounds great..
Would be nice for a non plasticky digital alternative...


I totally agree on this. Actually Nebula can go into huge saturation if you use a lot of instances, but it will kill your cpu and its quite tedious to set up. (but not nearly as much work as actually rendering to tape and then sampling back - im only talking about the tapebooster+ plug here.)

Also there is a program in Michael's BOGEN pack, that can go into huge saturation. (i mean it) i still think its kind of a lucky error ,and the real unit doesnt behave this way (but i dont care casue i really dig the effect), or dunno what miracle Michael managed to pull there, but i never heard any other programs do nearly that much saturation. Other programs usually just start to fart up the sub end with huge glitches.

So im really curios why this program can work and others cant.
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