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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby ngarjuna » Wed May 04, 2011 2:26 am

cfunck wrote:Mastermat, I agree completely with you on the sublety of the console emulations presented in this especific thread.
I suggest you listen to Alex B newest examples, it´s a nice RnB track and each console has its own vibe. Easier to hear than this example.


It has been said before but I guess it just has to be reiterated every so often...

Alex B's examples are created for the particular purpose of making his programs sound nice. That makes perfect sense (since at least one of Alex's goals in creating these programs is to be able to sell them). So his examples will (and should) dazzle the listener. But Alex's examples are in no way "easier to hear" if you mean comparing one console to another (if you mean it's easier to hear how they make your audio sound better, then yes, they do) which is specifically why this thread exists; originally we asked the developers to come up with a mix that they could all use to demo consoles (so that we would have our apples-to-apples comparison) and they weren't really interested versus coming up with their own unique demos that better showed off (and advertised) their wares.

And I'm sure other choices that were made for this comparison (minimizing [almost to the point of not using] any effects so as to isolate the differences exclusively from the consoles) that wouldn't benefit Alex's examples; I can't swear to it, but I'm betting he did indeed use EQs and compressors and the like to get the best mix he could. This test did not; that was never the goal (and nobody offered to pony up a great sounding mix for the comparison anyway, so we the community got what we were offered). So you can continue to "critique" the mixes in this thread but that only misses the point.

Also, this thread is not an advertisement for console programs. The developers who make console programs do more than enough promoting their materials; if you don't know how a console program would benefit you, then listening to the mixes in this thread are probably not going to answer that question for you. There are plenty of other discussions and examples for that, it's not here in this thread.

These "mixes" (they're not actually mixed by most standards so that's a bit of a misnomer) exist for one totally different purpose: to give Nebula users an apples-to-apples comparison of a wide variety of consoles (of which there are now many) so that users can hear the different characters and qualities of how those consoles interact on various frequencies and dynamics. It's not to make the consoles sound good, it's not to demonstrate how the consoles can make audio sound better. In fact each instance of console is doubled up in order to exaggerate the character/color of the boards far beyond what you would hear in an example where a single instance is put on each channel (like the way you would use them in a mix). The original comparison examples were created with this single-instance methodology and people complained constantly that the effects were too subtle to make good comparisons (hell, that has been said repeatedly about the examples in this thread although I'm not sure how anyone could think these examples are 'subtle' by an audio engineer's definition). So I decided to go with the exaggerated approach in order to accomplish this particular goal; which is different than mixing someone's record or demonstrating how to use a product to make something sound better.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby mastermat » Wed May 04, 2011 4:46 am

cfunck wrote:Mastermat, I agree completely with you on the sublety of the console emulations presented in this especific thread.
I suggest you listen to Alex B newest examples, it´s a nice RnB track and each console has its own vibe. Easier to hear than this example.

Let´s just not forget that, besides the nice colors we have from these consoles, we´re still summing in the box. The real beauty is actually the interactions of the elements in the analog world and that we don´t have with nebula. I just bought a dangerous 2 bus and realized quickly how different itb is from otb. It´s possible to hear that even with cheaper gear like mackie mixers. I´m not saying better or worse, just different.

Let´s just not get too offended with another member´s opinion. Let´s not turn Nebula into a religion.


´nuf said ;)
regarding summing out of the box...I use the audient sumo summing amplifier and I think the same: not better than summing itb but different...to me it sounds more natural with a nicer and more defined stereo image....the more channels you sum the more obvious the difference becomes. I use an aurora 16 from lynx and go in the sumo with 16 analog channels...sum them up there with some nice hardware inserted (stc8, nseq2, fatso, drawmer s3) and go back in the box over the aurora....that changed a lot for me.....would it make sense to insert on every channel a console plug (I have to find one that I really like first) before summing them up analog?
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby Mimi » Wed May 04, 2011 6:22 am

I understand your point of view mastermat...
And understand the point of view of ngarjuna...
the many years I've been mixing in analog consoles, SSL4048 G plus, and N**e Vx 60... The N**e VX 60 is my favorite...
At home I use in my studio just mix ITB, I do not like, more with nebula and consoles AlexB I discovered the pleasure of mixagen ITB, The issue is no right or wrong or good or bad, This is a personal quest.
found what I was seeking with reference analog sound in my head.
to be honest nebula has the same characteristics of the analog console, but is necessary to add input instances in all channels and output instances in master channel.
In analog console hardware The same happens...
If you process a music in L/R in two channels of a analog console , result will be subtle, I already took the test .
the accumulation of channels is that makes a big difference...
mix 32 channels in a console N**e VX 60 is better of that process two channels already mixed in a console N**e Vx 60...You will only understand the depth and nothing else.
I own two corei7 870 in network and I use all channels with consoles with nebula server... For me works and pleases me.
cheaper that to buy a protoolsHD with interface 96... I save money and do wonderful works.
But this is a very subjective thing...Is good for me...
my work flow is good... I do not think consoles are so subtle.
All the analog consoles without equalizers and compressors without pre-amp all bypass, are "subtle" .
even pushing the sound and coming in red is not so obvious...
There are many stories about the mystical sound of the large real analogs consoles. :|
half is a lie and another half exaggeration :roll:
the real analog consoles leaves the sounds deep and easy to manipulate with increase of its harmonics.
Has analog consoles that make the sound worse...
Exemple : S*L Xlogic :|
I try to look at what you can do with nebula... AlexB did an excellent job with nebula consoles.
Thank you all...
literature K- 14 by Bob Katz :
http://www.4shared.com/file/N060kN0Q/Bob_catz.html
Last edited by Mimi on Thu May 05, 2011 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby adambones » Wed May 04, 2011 10:48 pm

I think you only get to fully appreciate these consoles when you are mixing your own music that you care about. I agree that listening to samples (as I have done on these and many other products, non-nebula sims included), you can often think, what's so special about that?

But when you are immersed in your own track, and you insert a buss emu or something, you're suddenly hear something completely new pop out in the mix, or it makes you react to it in a different way. The problem with listening to samples is chances are the style is not your thing, and subconsciously you are just skimming it, hearing-wise. I guarantee if someone played your favourite record but summed differently you would really feel it.

I say this because I had similar feelings about console emulations to those expressed above, but eventually decided to get AlexBs CLC and GMC. Having used them nearly every day for a couple months now, I have to say I'm frequently delighted by what they offer :P
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby Henry Olonga » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:33 pm

Had another go with using the consoles and now I can say I GET what it is all about. You need to chain these suckers together. So - I updated to the latest version of nebula and also got Alexb's 4K compressor recently.

What I did was set up a chain in Xlutop chainer. For those who don't know it is a piece of software that let's you well - chain a series of FX together. It has horrible latency as it does not report plugin latency to the daw. Anyway - here is what I did.

R2R - MLC input - 4K compressor - Chain of ML eQs ( Hshelf, Hmids, Lmids,Lshelf ) MLC Buss out,R2R

After bouncing down the track and adjusting for latency I am blown away. Get a chainer plugin and it all comes together from a workflow point of view. It is one track at a time and you do need to commit but boy does it sound like I have an S*L anmd Real tape in my home studio.

The great thing with chainer is that you can set up your default chain and adjust per track. Thumbs up from me now..... :mrgreen:
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby RJHollins » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:41 am

Hi h-man !

Yes, the 'Chainer' is a very handy plugin, but it DOES have issues. Beside the latency reporting, I also think that it doesn't utilize multi-core processors efficiently. [i do need to triple check that issue ... don't need to spread incorrect info].

I know DAW let you slap a bunch of efx into slots, but the 'chainer' is handy to transport a group of effects between different host apps.

We need a super chainer ... something like a NEB-Chainer :shock:
;)
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NVC [Nebula Virtual Controllers]
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby grahamduncan » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:39 am

I haven't tried this but it's another option - Metaplugin:
http://www.ddmf.eu/product.php?id=3

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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby RJHollins » Tue Jun 14, 2011 8:25 am

grahamduncan wrote:I haven't tried this but it's another option - Metaplugin:
http://www.ddmf.eu/product.php?id=3
Graham


Yea ... I bought this one. Looked promising, but it
has issue with Nebula's samplerate. It would end up
changing Nebula to 16k SR. I spoke with the developer, but he was unable to figure a solution.

What Metaplug offered was a way to split a stereo track into 2 separate feeds. This would be a very nice routing tool for mastering.

Wish NEB & Meta developers could get together and solve this [hint]
:roll:
i7-5820k, MSI X99A Plus, 16 GIG Ram, Noctua NH-D14, Win-7 Pro [64-bit], Reaper-64

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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby Henry Olonga » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:05 pm

@RJ - the load spreading in Sonar 8 is perfect.In previous versions it would over load on one core but now when bouncing down it spreads the load very well. I have had to manually adjust each bounced track to sync it with the original but it's a small price to pay for the sound.

It's a wonder no-one seems to have improved on the Xlutop chainer.

EDIT: Spoke too soon.Trying a few of them now

http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4458671
Check this thread and follow the link in the second last post
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby ngarjuna » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:24 pm

For me, the chaining potential of REAPER is a huge feature for a Nebula heavy user like myself. It not only saves instances but also the entire plugin state. It seems like the kind of FX handling feature any host should have.
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