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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby Henry Olonga » Sat Jul 31, 2010 1:39 pm

Same here - I can hardly tell the difference. I appreciate the people who love the consoles and although I have all of them the Bogen to me gives a bit a of colour but I can hardly hear the others. Am I just bad at listening?

I know that mixing should be easier with them but they seem so subtle.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby SWAN » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:39 pm

h-man wrote:Same here - I can hardly tell the difference. I appreciate the people who love the consoles and although I have all of them the Bogen to me gives a bit a of colour but I can hardly hear the others. Am I just bad at listening?

I know that mixing should be easier with them but they seem so subtle.


I must say Im glad someone is saying it as to be honest Im not even sure if I hear a difference or it is placebo when I see the file names and attribute what I 'think' it should sound like and project that onto the music...I need to do an ABX test I think - but if that is the case - I think my money outght to go elsewhere first before consoles...

H-Man - Bogen is the one I was considering getting as apparently it is really coloured...is it pretty audible? Warm and saturated?
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby ngarjuna » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:54 pm

I don't know how you guys are comparing but personally I load the WAV files up in my DAW and switch back and forth between program choices. To me, there are pretty clear and audible differences between the consoles. Is it subtle? Sure, especially if you mean that non-engineers will probably never perceive these kinds of differences; but most of what engineers do is subtle by that definition. When I focus on pretty much each of the instruments separately while I'm A/B'ing the way the curve of the board and the way it interacts with different program material seems pretty evident (even if it is subtle). When I A/B/X I can't tell you "Oh, that's the XXX console" but I'm just listening for the differences that I like and the differences I don't like and selecting on that basis, so it doesn't precisely matter which is which; I can, however, draw on my experience of the way the different programs have behaved on prior comparisons to make more educated choices so that I don't need to compare 7 consoles on every mix (which would get pretty cumbersome).
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby Henry Olonga » Sat Jul 31, 2010 3:54 pm

Hey Swan - yup - some of the Bogen programs are just that - warm saturated and really analog sounding. I would suggest using a few in series to accentuate the effect it it is still not enough but yes - the Bogen - it has character.

Hey ngarjuna - I need to try that as well but I am not saying I cannot hear the difference. Just so you know - I work at 96 khz and I use high resolution sennheiser HD 800s and these things reveal everything. In spite of that I am still struggling to hear more than just a tightening here, or a bass hump there, or a tiny bit of air there. Obviously works for many but I can get more of a sound with a gritty eq it seems or the other character packages like R2R or the tube collection. Anyway - I will keep experimenting and listening and somehow incorporate these into my workflow. I mean - I've paid for them after all.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby ngarjuna » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:18 pm

I definitely hear what you're saying, H-man. I guess another way of looking at it is:
These are all sampled from "the very best" consoles ever made (pretty much every program in this comparison so far has been called the best console ever by someone at some time). How good would a console be if it majorly colored the sound? Coloration is fine and good on some projects and (generally speaking) in small doses but very few things in the category of "greatest ever" are going to apply massive amounts of color. If you took a mix to three studios with the same listening chain but 3 different classic consoles, I would expect the mix to sound reasonably similar (room differences aside).

Engineers may love a noisy, old board for certain special effects but, given the choice, they're going to go with one of the classic consoles for their main studio desks over a character piece. You'll get your special effect character from other pieces in the studio like preamps, EQs, compressors and the like.

I'm not saying you're trying to get "too much color" because how would I know what your material calls for or how you want it to sound...but I think the subtlety you're referring to is quite intentional and not so much a limitation of either Nebula or these programs but rather a reflection of what engineers have classically wanted out of their consoles. But it's a piece that, when you add it together with some of the other more fabulous Nebula programs (especially the tape machines), it definitely plays its part in the overall sound, though as more of a foundation than a special-effect-y kind of coloring process.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby everbeatz » Sat Jul 31, 2010 4:39 pm

I always remember Tchad Blake's statement when mixing.

It goes something like:

"If I have to A-B more than 2 times and still don't hear the difference, I loose interest in that difference."

Also, consoles are NOT coloring devices, except when pushed hard into distortion. Main thing is they're supposed to sum, as clean as possible. If people expect not-subtle kind of coloration they should seek for distortion devices, not consoles.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby futur2 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:23 pm

it's not easy hearing significant differences in these files. and it is even more difficult to draw conclusions - or even the right conclusions - from the differences you hear like boosting of the hf content in the globe console for example. a dense mix of a tightly played song would be much better for demonstration purposes. i have heard more differences in most other shootouts.

i have CLC and globe and i'm contemplating to buy the vintage blue console but i'm not quite certain i really need it.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby ngarjuna » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:37 pm

futur2 wrote:it's not easy hearing significant differences in these files. and it is even more difficult to draw conclusions - or even the right conclusions - from the differences you here like boosting of the hf content in the globe console for example. a dense mix of a tightly played song would be much better for demonstration purposes. i have heard more differences in most other shootouts.

i have CLC and globe and i'm contemplating to buy the vintage blue console but i'm not quite certain i really need it.


Well it's not supposed to be "easy" to hear the difference; that was kind of the whole discussion about "subtle" above. In case you missed that part, if the coloration from these consoles weren't subtle, they wouldn't be the most sought after consoles ever.

As far as the material...maybe someday your clients will gift you a set of files to use for a new comparison, one which does a better job of presenting conclusions, and you can spend the requisite hours buying and rendering consoles.

Until then, this still remains the only apples-to-apples comparison between the various consoles that I'm aware of.
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby futur2 » Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:49 pm

ngarjuna wrote:Well it's not supposed to be "easy" to hear the difference; that was kind of the whole discussion about "subtle" above. In case you missed that part, if the coloration from these consoles weren't subtle, they wouldn't be the most sought after consoles ever.


did i say something different?

ngarjuna wrote:Until then, this still remains the only apples-to-apples comparison between the various consoles that I'm aware of.

that's true and much appreciated!
(but if you want to check out the alexb consoles only, his demos files give a better impression imho.)
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Re: consoles...Consoles...CONSOLES

Postby ngarjuna » Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:05 pm

futur2 wrote:that's true and much appreciated!
(but if you want to check out the alexb consoles only, his demos files give a better impression imho.)


I don't disagree with you, but that's sort of why I made some of the choices I made: we don't have any clue what Alex did on those mixes to market his product. Maybe there are lots of complimentary boosts and cuts; maybe the material itself was chosen due to being complimentary in the first place; maybe it was recorded on an amazing input chain to begin with (perhaps Alex and Michael have access to these various consoles they make into these various programs, I have no idea honestly). And so on.

And it would make sense for the developers to make their demos as good and appropriate as they can; it shows the potential of the programs from that perspective (which will hopefully convince people to buy the programs, that is the point after all).

This material was not made for any particular program or demonstration; it's definitely not tracked on any special input chain, it's probably a pretty decent representation of the kind of signal chain your "average" Nebula user might have access to. It's super dry of other effects so that the differences, while subtle, are particularly due to the way the consoles interact with the program material rather than a matrix of complex interactions (I intentionally left off R2R programs even though they really bring out some of the differences that the consoles impart). But unlike a demo, this project is not really to convince anyone to buy any particular thing; rather, if you're deciding on which console to buy, it gives a pretty realistic and down to earth example of what 40+ instances of a console emulation sounds like on a common source.

So what you're saying is true, this is not an amazing demo of any of these programs. It's just not meant to be.
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