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Cupwise release- C660 Comp/Limiter set - huge V2 update!!!!!

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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby SWAN » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:07 pm

users should probably beware that if you are doing transient heavy dance music Im not sure this (or smooth) is the right program...partially due to the hardware and also due to Nebula not being the best for heavy bass and transient material...
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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby Cupwise » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:09 pm

SWAN wrote:users should probably beware that if you are doing transient heavy dance music Im not sure this (or smooth) is the right program...partially due to the hardware and also due to Nebula not being the best for heavy bass and transient material...

have you tried adding in some look ahead? or increasing the value of thresh2, which sharpens the knee (on the hardware you'd be moving towards 'limit' on that thresh control if you increase it in the nebula program). i think it takes a while to really get the hang of adjusting those two thresh controls to find out what the programs can and can't do.

i'm not denying that nebula has limitations. of course these programs aren't exactly the same as the real thing. they also cost about $10,000+ less. i did mention in the manual (with a link to that section and others that i think are important, right at the top of the manual) that nebula can have trouble with bass. also the demo program that's provided should give anyone who checks it out a clear picture of how the library can or can't handle bass or transients. i can't stress enough that people should get the free demos when i have one available.
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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby Melon_Jack » Thu Nov 14, 2013 10:21 pm

I've liked the demo and preparing my card for purchasing this gorgeous, velvet library))) Also compared it with WAVES Puigchild - last one was plastic and non-breathing.
Excellent work, Cupwise! Once again)
Sorry for my bad english =))
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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby SWAN » Fri Nov 15, 2013 3:26 am

Cupwise wrote:i did mention in the manual (with a link to that section and others that i think are important, right at the top of the manual)


yeah I saw it in the manual and have experience with Nebula in dance music and heavy transients - and I saw the user above having problems mention transients...
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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby Cupwise » Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:19 am

i hope you dont think i was being snippy with my wording there. i was just pointing out that i have mentioned that these programs may or may not work as a user wants them to with bass heavy signals in the manual, which i suggest people glance at at my site. basically just that i'm not trying to hide anything here. and again i think the demo should speak for the set loudest, and would probably reveal any limitations to anyone who uses it a bit, and also show what's positive about it. i think transients can be tricky to handle with these or any neb comp, but look ahead around 3-4ms can help. another thing that could help with transients is using more than one pass or even two different comps. one to catch the transients and the other to get you the compression you want. its not too uncommon for tracks to get more than one dose of compression in the hardware realm, even specifically for that exact reason.
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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby indelible » Fri Nov 15, 2013 1:23 pm

Cupwise wrote:
indelible wrote:
You have to chill . I'm not accusing you . It's pretty obvious that i modified the xml file.i have the ltimed set to 550000 which is not the default value.So how can i reset the xml without installing nebula again?By the way i was one of the few users who had problems with the smooth 609 demo. nebula crashed on macos.we had a private conversation and you send me some different demos but i had no luck.So i bought the 609 based on what people here sad about it.
heh, i am chill
and i don't see you accusing me of anything and never said you did. i'm just trying to help you figure out if there's a problem with the programs not working as they are supposed to or if they really just aren't for you. i vaguely remember talking to you but i don't remember you ever telling me that the full 609 set just completely crashed any time you loaded it, or was that just the demo? does this demo crash? so you're now saying that you have two separate issues- they sound somehow weird and they crash and won't load?

to get a clean xml, what you could do, is re-install but without deleting your current install. just create a new folder somewhere on your hard drive, and install the vsts to there, then you can go there and get the new xmls, and move them to wherever your neb vsts are actually installed.
do that and see what that does, if anything.

also you said in the other thread where you were asking about reverbs that you increased the buffer and it helped with reverbs, but did it have any affect with comps?


I have issues only with the 609 demo program.The full set load fine.I'll do some tests with the increased buffer size.I'll try it on Windows too and if this doesn't help i'll create a new xml file.Maybe my issues with this comps are related to the style of music.I produce and mix hip hop stuff.Not a ''bling'' ''bling'' stuff with tons of 808's and sub basses but the kick and the bass have to be hard
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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby Cupwise » Fri Nov 15, 2013 6:16 pm

hmm that's weird about the 609 demo. this was all a while back so it's kind of slipped my mind, but also i haven't had any recent emails about it. anyway yeah it is also true that this comp might not be something you'd use for anything that needs compression. it's going to have it's strengths and weaknesses like any other. some people do use the hardware on drums but i'm kind of doubting that it gets used in the same manner as other comps out there, for that purpose. i've seen people in threads talking about using it for only a few db of compression on a drum bus, just to get the sound from the unit (using it just to get its sound is a pretty common thing you can see talked about), or maybe on the opposite end of the spectrum they'll use it to totally smash something (which here would require the fastest attack time and a few ms of look-ahead).

probably it's most commonly mentioned as a favorite for vocals. acoustic guitars seem to get mentioned a lot. it does have a very soft knee, being a variable mu tube compressor, so it's not the kind of thing you can expect to take to drums like a swiss army knife as you might with a hard knee comp (so swan is absolutely right that other comps are probably going to be better in that type of situation). so yeah probably some other comp would be best to control transients (like my hard knee rayphlex and/or slick9k, not so much smooth but it is another that's commonly used for buss compression which is usually after each individual drum track has already been compressed some) and then maybe a few db from this one on a drum buss after that's done, to unify things with a nice thick gooey sheen. it's also commonly mentioned for bass (mileage may vary with neb, again try the demo). so sustained sounds. drum ambience tracks can sound good squished a bit with it.

the full compressors in the set are definitely more versatile than the demo. having the thresh2 control available does allow you to fine tune things a lot more. with lower values you get a more mushy sound, and higher ones give a much more open and clear sound. unfortunate that i can't include that in the demo without giving away too much. i might try to think if there is a way to do it. maybe make another demo program that's just 1k and maybe some other limitation...

anyway if you look at threads at gearslutz talking about the hardware, the comp gets used in specific situations commonly, instead of being used as a general purpose compressor that can do anything.
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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby harmonik » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:29 pm

My understanding is that the nebula compressor issue with transients is due to the 10ms (or was it 20ms? I'll say 10ms here for illustration) default Prog Rate for compressors (except e.g. Cupwise SHQ versions which have customized shorter Prog Rates). The 10ms prog Rate means that the input signal level judgments nebula makes to determine how much gain reduction to trigger are not continuous like analog would be, but are averages over 10ms windows that are of course independent of the song tempo. So a <10 ms drum transient that repeats (e.g. snare hits) may get a different reaction from the nebula comp each time, depending on what else the transient was averaged with in that particular 10ms window, making the transients sound differently compressed each time, kind of randomly, which sounds odd when the ear expects a consistent gain reduction response with each hit. So even when using only 1-2 db GR with the nebula compressor, the same thing is still happening, it's just not as noticeable since there is not much level change happening anyway.

In this case I'm not sure what a <10ms attack setting on a nebula compressor even means if the Prog Rate is 10ms. Unless I'm misunderstanding something. Maybe this is where look-ahead comes in, but which doesn't go all the way up to 10ms does it?

It also seems that using slower attack settings, like several tens of ms, in the nebula comp would avoid this, although I'm not sure it would if the actual hardware did not have slow attack settings/behavior to begin with.
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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby Cupwise » Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:47 pm

nah the default prog rate for nebula comps is between 2-3ms depending on the sample rate. which is why i say having a look ahead of around 3-4 ms can still allow you to catch transients better (and again i'd like to point out that analog comps always let through some of the signal. even if it's only one cycle of a 1khz sine tone, there will still be that spike which may peak pretty high above the rest of the tone depending on the level of compression. fully 'instant' and fairly clean compression/limiting only became possible with digital processors like l2, which uses look-ahead to achieve that). my shq programs in this set use .75ms so they need even less look-ahead.

but as swan mentioned and as i just described, the actual hardware this set reflects is not used as a swiss army knife style compressor, so the programs shouldn't really be expected to be usable like that either.

preamp style programs typically have prog rates around 20ms by default, set in the templates those programs are made from, which i've mentioned recently in a thread here. and that simply cannot ever catch transients at all let alone ever be said to be accurately dealing with them (more truthfully it's not dealing with them at all, especially when a program is also using EVF mode as the templates do, and which completely just doesn't even see transients), which is why programs i've done like that lately (like the pass through programs in this set) i have been doing more like comps, with faster prog rates. i think 2-3ms is pretty decent, but obviously it requires more look-ahead and that's not the most desirable thing which is why i do the SHQ versions. .75ms i think is really good.

again all of this can be seen in the demo. it can be set up to catch all or most transients with some look ahead. but again, look up threads where people who have the actual comp talk about when and where they use it, and you'll see that it's not considered an all-purpose thing, but more as a comp with a handful of typical uses where it excels.
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Re: Cupwise release- Creamy 660 Comp/Limiter set

Postby harmonik » Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:09 pm

My bad on thinking it was a 10 ms prog rate. I didn't realize it was down in the 2-3 ms range for compressors.
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