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What about a Nebula Free-G like tool? (With a good Mono Pan)

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Re: What about a Nebula Free-G like tool? (With a good Mono Pan)

Postby enriquesilveti » Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:25 pm

Is called crest factor.
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Re: What about a Nebula Free-G like tool? (With a good Mono Pan)

Postby FrankydT » Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:34 pm

Thanks to all for your support.
Yes, I was thinking about a complete pan-balance-level program.
For balance 3-4,5 (These already provided kindly by AlexB)
2,5 (Pro-Tools Like) and finally 6 Pan Law.
The real lack in the plugin's world is the Mono Pan.
There's only the Daw's one.
This would complete the Nebula's Console Channel Chain, without mentioning a useful tool for every mix.
About the sonic change of Free G, I don't say that it has a 'sound'
But try lower a the level at, as example, -0,15.
Now try lower it of a tick (-0,16) and then again another tick (-0,17).
Listen very carefully.
It seems to (very, very slightly, it's not so evident) 'shift ' the sound in some way. This even when the track-Instrument is in Solo.
When the level is -0,15, there's a 'tone', it seems to slightly change at -0,16, then the previous 'tone' 'returns' at -0,17.
In few words, it seems, not always, but often, to have a 'tone' at even numbers and another at odd numbers.
Maybe I'm crazy (well, I must admit it, the answer is YES!!!! :x :mrgreen: ) but...
But this can be used and desidered, as an effect.
Anyway, I've also asked to Sonimus DSP guy to incorporate these things in Satson (Channel and Bus Plugin). He seems interested.
Let's hope... but if you want, you can bring to reality this implementation either in nebula either with Sonimus Satson requesting this you too.
My greater thanks to everyone.
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Re: What about a Nebula Free-G like tool? (With a good Mono Pan)

Postby farjedi » Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:24 pm

If you can hear it consistently your probably right and not crazy. i wonder if it effects transients, i don't use the fader on it but when i take it off mids 2-5k sort of range seem to poke out more. Perhaps the method of analysis in the plugin causes this I don't know?.
Anyway such a plugin you describe would be really great. I think in the case of pan a coded plugin may be better using less Ram and cpu I'm not a coder so that might be incorrect,but it would be a great addition to the already brilliant Satson.
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Re: What about a Nebula Free-G like tool? (With a good Mono Pan)

Postby TranscendingMusic » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:14 pm

I meant to post about gain plugins and the like...
I've been pondering something about them that throws me off a bit. FOr example the FreeG. If you were to try and null it with a copy of itself on a duplicated track, it nulls no problem. But, if you copy a track and use Free G to bump up it up 1 dB lets say, then you try and match the copied track using the tracks volume to 1 dB, it does not null. And I remember I tried other gain plugins as well but mostly the gain stages of other plugins. They all nulled around the same point, never completely.I did this in Sonar. I also remember I bumped the track volume 1 dB and then bumped the trim on the copied track 1 dB and the same behavior! No complete null. So may be somebody else has some insight about this. May be somebody using a 32-bit platform just to make sure. It's pretty strange to me. It implicates DAW gain is different then 3rd party gain VST's (?) DAW gain is even different with its own trims (?) oh the madness :o
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Re: What about a Nebula Free-G like tool? (With a good Mono Pan)

Postby yr » Wed Sep 28, 2011 10:33 pm

Yes it's crazy- in Wavelab, when I use FreeG on one track and "steinberg leveler" on the other they null to -132dBFS. When I use a fader (instead of the "leveler") they only null to about -44.5dBFS.
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Re: What about a Nebula Free-G like tool? (With a good Mono Pan)

Postby ngarjuna » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:47 pm

TranscendingMusic wrote:I meant to post about gain plugins and the like...
I've been pondering something about them that throws me off a bit. FOr example the FreeG. If you were to try and null it with a copy of itself on a duplicated track, it nulls no problem. But, if you copy a track and use Free G to bump up it up 1 dB lets say, then you try and match the copied track using the tracks volume to 1 dB, it does not null. And I remember I tried other gain plugins as well but mostly the gain stages of other plugins. They all nulled around the same point, never completely.I did this in Sonar. I also remember I bumped the track volume 1 dB and then bumped the trim on the copied track 1 dB and the same behavior! No complete null. So may be somebody else has some insight about this. May be somebody using a 32-bit platform just to make sure. It's pretty strange to me. It implicates DAW gain is different then 3rd party gain VST's (?) DAW gain is even different with its own trims (?) oh the madness :o

Yep, 32bit REAPER, same results. I tried native DAW gain vs. Satson, FreeG and a JS coded trim plugin. They don't null although what's produced is quite low (below -70dB in most cases). That included drum rich material (with plenty of snare transients and such).

I would presume this is because of differences in rounding at different points in their various paths.

One interesting thing that I noticed for the first time is that it nulls 'deeper' on steady state signals and signals that stay at a fairly constant average level. When I tried it with a signal that faded in there were points where the null really fell apart and the level was really high (mainly transients on the fade in). Maybe that's related to rounding differences too, not quite sure I can wrap my head around that one.

ETA: I'm reminded that there was a thread on the REAPER forums somewhere (sorry it would take me forever to find it because I don't think I posted in it) where one of the devs said that the trim values you see in the REAPER interface are not exact (or they are subjected to rounding would be a better way of saying). REAPER doesn't think about 1.01dB (although that's what the label says), really it's thinking 1.00947856984 or whatever and the UI truncates the actual value to something that can be printed in the space allotted. The implications of .00N dB are fairly moot in terms of audibility but interesting nonetheless.
Last edited by ngarjuna on Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What about a Nebula Free-G like tool? (With a good Mono Pan)

Postby ngarjuna » Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:52 pm

Related to the OP: I would be interested in knowing more about Acqua engine / licensed Nebula. It seems like a gain control with a good meter would be pretty simple to implement (it's like using the plugin with no program loaded) and the GUI refresh rate even seems to be usable as a ballistics control. I always thought a variation of one of my VU skins would make a decent Acqua standalone meter/trim (there are even mockups in an old thread somewhere).
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Re: What about a Nebula Free-G like tool? (With a good Mono Pan)

Postby FrankydT » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:17 pm

Hi Ngarjuna, that would be really, really great!
Related to Free-G, yes, I've searched Logic Pro Help forum and I found a similar discussion.
Many people there hear something too, an effect.
Not only with Free-G, but with its bigger brother StereoTools too.
I don't understand what exactly affects, if trasients or if it shifts the side (I keep Pan Law on Free-G at 0, just to note)...
But I hear it clearly on Yamaha HS-80 and Beyerdynamic 880 Pro headphones. And my Fireface is a good interface, so...
Who knows...
Maybe, yes, could be my OS, my daw, Logic's bridge...
But I prefer to trust my hears than scientific analysis, so I don't care to verify it.
To tell it with a metaphor: The beetle for physical laws can't fly, but it doesn't know...
I must to say, anyway, with Satson, as example, I don't hear nothing strange.
I think that a better and newer replacement or alternative to Free.G would be a very good thing. (maybe 64 bit Mac too... * you Logic's Bridge)
And Ngarjuna's idea is a very good thing. Thank you.
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