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Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby Cupwise » Mon Aug 13, 2012 4:10 am

ah! i see it now.
thing is, what i'm seeing anyway, they still have the same amount of steps as the 1k version.

it's just that the 'indicator' or uhh, 'readout', the number on the nebula control that tells you the frequency, for some reason it doesn't change with the filter as closely as with the 1k version. i'm not really sure why this would be, but the different positions are definitely there.

just look at vstanalyser or some other analyzer while you slowly sweep through. there should be 20 steps altogether, for all 3 versions.

the frequency that the readout gives you isn't really what i would call 'accurate' anyway. i went by what the knob on the unit says, then i noticed that the actual HP filter goes up to around 400hz, but the knob only goes up to 220. so i extended those numbers to go up to 250, but the numbers just aren't all that accurate in the end. it's kind of hard to say exactly where a HP or LP filter is centered, different people would call it differently.

so best bet is just use your ears.

i don't know if i'll fix this soon or ever because it's a tiny bug. another similar one i noticed is that the readout unit for the LP filter was 'Hz' instead of 'kHz' like it should be. i fixed that with the update though. i'll put this on my list of things to maybe do eventually, but i can't guess what's causing it or how to fix it.
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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby Barendse » Mon Aug 13, 2012 3:31 pm

Wow!!! These dynamic filters seem to love drums! Great work Tim. I hope you can fix the read out bug soon.
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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby Cupwise » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:42 am

Barendse wrote:Wow!!! These dynamic filters seem to love drums! Great work Tim. I hope you can fix the read out bug soon.


ok, here's the deal. i gave the stepped versions just because. i really didn't agree with the request when i did. but they were (free) extras. the readout bug only applies to some of those extras. i could spend hours trying to fix that bug or i could move on and do new things. also, in the future, i don't think i'm going to offer stepped versions of any filter i may do like this again, and here's why:
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5029931#5029931

if anyone can read that thread, and actually tell me, there or here, why interpolation is bad with a filter, then i will not only focus on fixing this tiny bug, but i will promise to release stepped filters for any filter i do or have done, even if it's from a fully variable unit. otherwise, if you can't prove that it's hurting the sound, then stepped versions are needlessly crippling the final program.

the idea that interpolation hurts filters is entirely unfounded and just wrong. that's my stance. some people have a stance to the contrary. ok. only problem is that i've laid out a completely logical argument to back up my stance, and i'm not seeing anything like that from the other side.

in fact, i'm sure that every person who likes nebula and argues against interpolation in filters, has argued that interpolation sounds great (even if they don't realize it). when you use a preamp or console or tape sim, you are always hearing interpolation, and you love it there. the only issue with filters/interpolation is: are the steps close enough to provide a smooth transition, and to maintain the filter shape that's characteristic of the unit? if the answer is yes, then there is absolutely no harm in the interpolation, and you prove this every time you say something like 'this tape program sounds great!'. inherently, the interpolation itself is the same thing, when used for a filter, or used for dynamics.

people need to either accept that nebula can be good for things like sweepable filters, if they are sampled correctly, or bring reasons why it isn't. if the readout bug is bothering you then i suggest to use interpolated versions, because there is absolutely nothing demonstrably wrong with them, and besides i don't think i can fix the readout bug without a complete re-do of those programs. i firmly disagree with why i made them, and i regret doing it. and i'll go so far as to say that from now on, they are unsupported extras. that DOESN'T apply to the non-dynamic ones because they actually have a real reason for existing (CPU).


there are completely unfounded beliefs that need dispelled. i'm taking a stand here. :)
Last edited by Cupwise on Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby Cupwise » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:48 am

i want to repeat this:
when you use a preamp or console or tape sim, you are always hearing interpolation, and you love it there.

you love the way interpolation can sound in Nebula. we all do. and the interpolation between filter samples is the same as the interpolation between dynamic steps.
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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby david1103 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 12:54 pm

things seem to have got a bit out of control on the stepped debate :shock: . i feel responsible for starting it up.

i tried to make a bit of a joke on KVR to say i wasn't so serious about it, but now you are spending time to make listening tests. i admire your determination, but hope you don't spend too much of your valuable time.

i am going to drop out of commenting on it anymore, but just to sum up my reasons for bringing it up in the first place.

- i have purchased only last week a sweeping filter program from another developer that has bad interpolation errors. i can see it on the analysis software >> AND hear it << in the sweep.

At certain points of the sweep the bass increases then goes away again, it's in no way from the original filter, its an interpolation error 100% and i can hear it clearly. Its so bad i won't be using it, and i am not going to say what program it is as i don't want to cause more trouble

- all sweeping analog filters, free and purchased, in the past have had this EXACT same problem. you can see how i am now very suspicious of interpolation in filters.

- i am cursed with a sense of perfectionism. i know it can be counter productive. to me, if stepped just makes your filter 1% better then i will only be using stepped. this is just me, i would not expect anyone else to be like this and am VERY grateful to anyone pandering to my paranoia, but in no way expect it as its a bit eccentric.

Its a FANTASTIC program as it is. The stepping made me 'feel' a lot better, it just got rid of the worry that i maybe missing hearing the errors.

In nebula i am really fed up with having to again and again do mass listening tests to every program i buy. there are often artifacts and all sorts of problems (compressors being the ultimate). Stepping = one less problem to test for and worry about,

>> BUT FOR *YOUR* PROGRAMS i now trust the interpolation 100%. <<

I now understand, thanks to your lengthy posts, that interpolation when done in the right way with very small steps is NOT going to reduce quality or deform the filter shape.

end of story...
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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby Cupwise » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:13 pm

no dude, i mean, it's apparently a pretty widespread belief.

as i keep pointing out, i plan on releasing more filter-related stuff, where the interpolated sweeping ability will be pretty important to the release.

so i just realized that it would be in my interest to try to correct what i feel like are misconceptions about the whole deal. maybe i haven't acted with 100% best possible tact but eh. what can i say? i think my points all still stand and i think i have good reason to want to make this case, and now is a good time.

so anyway, if a listening test actually were to help go towards changing some peoples' minds, or at least getting some people to re-think what they consider nebula to be capable of, then i think it would be worth it.

i see what you are saying and that maybe you have some reason to think the way you do on the issue, but like i keep saying, it isn't a fault of Nebula or its interpolation itself. try to appreciate my position because i also don't want to come off like i'm in some heavy competition with other devs, so i'm not ever bringing anyone else's filters into it (and i honestly don't have any besides 2 from eric @signaltonoize, but they are stepped (and sound great)). i'm just asking that mine be judged on their merit, and i'm also saying that i think Nebula can handle the sweep as long as something is sampled properly. that's all i'm saying.

it should be clear why i'm saying this, as a developer. it's kind of my business. the other dude in that thread at kvr though, seems to think that there is just something inherently and automatically wrong with the interpolation itself, and i get the impression that lots of people think this with interpolated nebula filters. it's just not the case (if it's done right).

you don't have to participate in the test and you don't have to take my word. i'm not trying to force people to believe me. i'm just putting some things i think down in a kind of permanent record that i can point to in the future when someone asks me about stepped versions.
:)

try to think about this from my point of view. how else could i have handled this? lots of people think something that you don't agree with, then it takes some effort to try to change that, doesn't it?

also, in honesty, i'm not 100% happy with the combo program. i think it still sounds good but the interpolation with the high pass isn't as good as with the HP solo program. so i MIGHT one day do the work to make that stepped. that one, to me, would make sense to do that. i think it's still OK as it is, but it isn't as close to the hardware as the solo HP.
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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby Cupwise » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:22 pm

also, my time isn't really THAT valuable ;)
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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby Barendse » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:02 pm

Speaking of valuable, to my ears this is the most valuable Nebula program of 2012 (so far). Interpolated or not, these sound brilliant. I love the 1k dynamic version on drums (snare/overheads) but also a cpu hungry 10K dynamic hpf @ 30Hz on a full mix worked out great. Amazing stuff.
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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby Henry Olonga » Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:59 am

Hi Tim,

Great release. Gonna get these for sure to support your stellar work. ;)

Keeping flying the Nebula flag so well.

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Re: Cupwise release- YouRei HP/LP filters

Postby Cupwise » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:06 am

sorry for digging this up again and giving my thread another needless bump, but i thought this was kind of cool. i considered for a while doing a listening test of some kind to try to show that there isn't any negative effect caused by interpolation between frequency positions. then i thought maybe i could just make some 'blind' programs, some which use interpolation and others that don't, but that would use the same freq. positions. this would give as close to a direct comparison as possible, and people could use the filters on whatever they wanted in their own time.

i thought about it and realized it could be done. so i did it.
http://www.cupwise.com/yourei-interpol-blindtest.zip

package has 44.1khz, and 96khz. an info txt explains the setup. there are 4 different combos of positions with the HP and LP filters. they don't have dynamics and only have 3k and nothing is adjustable. i never released a demo for the set, and well, this is a 'demo' in a way, but you won't get much mileage out of these beyond testing. but they should work with free Neb. they won't be up forever. in about a week i'll give away a password that unlocks a .zip in the archive that contains a txt that has the answers as to which is which. look here for the password (in about a week):
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=357308&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15&sid=7e695e39d261697e851edca7736d5f54

i don't really intend to clutter up the forums here with people posting their guesses as to which is which, i'm not trying to host a gearslutz style listening test. it's mostly for people who have any interest in the topic to just check it out for themselves. if you can't really tell a difference but just end up making some guesses, that probably means you didn't hear anything wrong with the interpolation. you could still get 'lucky' and guess even all 4 correct, so if you are just guessing i think you should take that to mean the interpolation is fine. but, if you really feel a need to post, and have a kvr account, i ask you do it over there. if you think that you hear something bad about one or the other then by all means post, because it will make your word more reliable if you say it before i release the answers.

i really wouldn't have bothered and had changed my mind about doing any test at all, but then i realized i could give out 'blind' programs and thought that was neat, so there it is. a different kind of blind listening test. if someone actually manages to pick out the interpolated one 4/4 times due to some perceived flaw, i might devise one further test for them, and i would then probably make sure to always offer stepped if they passed that test...
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