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0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby Cupwise » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:00 pm

hmm that's kind of an odd situation. you have highly dynamic material and want all of it to be 'hitting the tape hot', but still retain its dynamics afterwards. in nebula's defense, you couldn't achieve that with a real deck, either.

you COULD do it with nebula, and automation of the gain in/out... just by dropping the gain when your signal got really hot.

i think it would be possible to make a program that gave a large window of several db, as a safety to prevent that 'going over' effect, but it would be kind of a pain, i'm not 100% it would work, and i don't think it would be worth it.
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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby yr » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:25 pm

Not what I meant. Lets say that I have a highly dynamic material and I want most peaks to reach 0vu (-18dbfs). Occasionally, there will be a very loud/short peak (only several times throughout the piece ). The way some libraries behave, you have to keep your maximum peak level somewhere around -8dBFS to stay clear from the odd looking digital artifacts. What I normally do, is create a duplicate track that processes only the peaks with lower settings. But you are right- sometimes it's a pain,and I can't do it for every project.

Using an analog machine you will always have to balance noise/distortion, but a modern tape formula gives you quite a headroom before heating the 3%THD mark (often +14 or more above nominal level)
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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby jazzhobby » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:31 pm

"I'm now wondering if it's possible to implement an hybrid dynamic/static program"

Doesnt this already exist with things like compressor threshold and brickwall limiter thresholds? Aren't these already Nebula libraries? Wouldnt they therefore just be dynamic by definition...

Maybe you could sidechain a second instance of nebula that is triggered by input gain. This is obviously very old technique.

EDIT: How does Nebula's core software ( ala D.V.K.T.) accurately "fill in the spaces" between samples on non-linear behavior effects (dynamic) as input approaches O or passes the developer's highest gain sample? Moreover, if a tape program can't extrapolate beyond Odb (or whatever the library developer deemed "Zero"), how can you ever really get the glamorous dynamic tape saturation these plugs claim. To me, that is where all the glorious dynamics exist on tape. Isn't then cranking the input pointless and not accurate to hardware?

yr: I am not talking +18, but maybe +2, +3, in bursts/spikes.

Also, what about the dynamic wow/flutter factor in these emulations?
Last edited by jazzhobby on Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:22 pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby yr » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:42 pm

There are no brickwall limiters for Nebula. A static preset uses a fixed set of kernels so it isn't switching (but the dynamics stay intact). When a preset is dynamic then kernel switching is determined by the input level (if I understand it correctly).

I don't understand the second part you wrote about 0dBFS- if you feed a tape machine with a signal that is 18db or more above nominal level (assuming 0vu =-18dBFS) it's not going to sound pretty either (unless you are talking about short peaks/over-shots).

It's true that the R2R doesn't generate high levels of distortion with many of it's presets. If you want to simulate higher levels of distortion (above what you could expect from a machine at nominal levels) you need to combine it with the TB+.
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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby RJHollins » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:06 pm

hmmm ... I think you may be trying to get too much from just using the R2R Library ... which is only part 1 of a 3 part tool that CDS has developed.

You should go to the CDS site and read up on the 'expansion' pack for R2R AND the VST plug-in [forgot the name exactly] that can drive the tape inputs further.

Also ... within the R2R library are several 'operating' levels that you should read up on to be sure you are using an appropriate one.

Also consider using several tape instances [even the same one] if you are really trying to bring out the tape character.

just some ideas.
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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby Finnish » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:47 pm

RJHollins wrote:hmmm ... I think you may be trying to get too much from just using the R2R Library ... which is only part 1 of a 3 part tool that CDS has developed.

You should go to the CDS site and read up on the 'expansion' pack for R2R AND the VST plug-in [forgot the name exactly] that can drive the tape inputs further.

Also ... within the R2R library are several 'operating' levels that you should read up on to be sure you are using an appropriate one.

Also consider using several tape instances [even the same one] if you are really trying to bring out the tape character.

just some ideas.


Yeah, I have TapeBooster+ program, I'm just trying to get my head around this appropriate input level thingy.

I'm using my setup today to find out more, I might post my findings here.
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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby Finnish » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:27 pm

Just a quick note, this is the phenomena that I'm experiencing:

This shows input volume
Image

And here's how it sounds
http://www.ukkohapponen.fi/media/Galleriat/Sekalaista/Nebula%20weird.mp3
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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby yr » Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:10 pm

This doesn't sound right- you can hear the ringing. How loud are the peaks?
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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby faun2500 » Mon Aug 22, 2011 9:56 pm

That harsh metallic type sound when the vocal comes in sounds like the peaks hitting nebula too loud.
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Re: 0dbFS and r2r , crank the input?

Postby Finnish » Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:17 am

faun2500 wrote:That harsh metallic type sound when the vocal comes in sounds like the peaks hitting nebula too loud.


Yeah, I double checked the levels (RMS and peaks) and it was peak hitting too hard on Nebula.

BTW, why isn't Nebula meter by default on peak mode, it's 4 RMS 17 by default?
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