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Re: CDSM

Postby yr » Thu Sep 08, 2011 8:15 pm

vicnestE wrote:
yr wrote:I think tubes generate more even harmonics compared to tape. You can try the following: use the files Michael posted on the tube-booster page and process only the first (dry) pass with the TB+. Not a scientific test, but you should notice a difference.


But it's mp3, the encoder/decoder has some influences too.


For sure, and I don't know the THD of the tube presets etc. I also think Michael mentioned somewhere that it's difficult to compare tapes and tubes, because tape saturation seems to have more significant effect on the sound (when THD is equal).

I did use another tube simulation (x3) and compared it to the last repetition in Michael's files (3x tube booster). The results are much more similar then the sound I get trying the same with the TB+. But of course you are right- it's not a "proper" test. It would be much better if someone that has both libraries (or Michael) could provide some comparative files.
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Re: CDSM

Postby cdsoundmaster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:13 pm

Hi everyone.
Thanks so much for the kind words!
The official post will happen once the web page and manual are complete.
Yes, there are some subtle, yet specific differences in harmonics with tubes and tape. But, I've found that it goes beyond even or odd, and has a little more to do with which stage in the order there is an increase in energy. This is where a lot of emu's miss the mark, since they tend to be static or only increase the same formula. The interaction of even/odd gets more different as more drive comes in. Tape generally becomes more noticeable once it goes beyond subtle harmonics, but remains pleasant for several dB's of boost. Tubes generally can maintain that 'bigger', 'rounder' thing a little more steadily, so on some material they may sound smoother. But, there is also a huge difference in interaction on different material, so you will enjoy the differences in TB+ and Tube Booster on different instruments and bus groups. And, there will be some situations where tubes aren't the right choice as well. I think the most exciting part is that now they can both be combined in subtle amounts to really partner just about any chain desired. And they can be added to individual effect chains if wanting...like.. a tube on a reverb bus, or a tube boost from a tube compressor... nice solid state mic/pre recording with subtle tube stage added. Ahhhh! so happy! :-)
But, still have to get the 'official' public release ready and here I am calling it by name!-lol.

As far as hearing/viewing differences in harmonics, with a good analyzer you may see that in certain levels the harmonics are slightly similar in even/odd on the first/second/third order, but almost never beyond that. More so, at different dynamics they change quite a bit. But, in most analysis you are only going to see the lowest dynamic level and not all dynamic levels that are sampled, so some of the dif's aren't easy to see- only hear. A good example is a clean drum track. If rendered in tube booster, it will probably get the best results lowering by as much as -7dB, and when the drive becomes really pronounced with 1-3 instances, you will hear a common tube 'pop' or 'punch' on the downbeat transient, where tape, at this stage, will typically be more distortion-sounding.

Also comment on comparison files- mp3's do impart some of their own 'thing', but I've found generally if using 320kbps there is not a lot of change in eq or dynamics, so something that has an obvious coloration or harmonic difference should come through pretty well. But, I really like FLAC, which is supposed to be lossless. It is pretty close to lossless, but it is not universal to every user, so high quality mp3 rendered very slow works fine for me in getting the idea across.

yr wrote:
vicnestE wrote:
yr wrote:I think tubes generate more even harmonics compared to tape. You can try the following: use the files Michael posted on the tube-booster page and process only the first (dry) pass with the TB+. Not a scientific test, but you should notice a difference.


But it's mp3, the encoder/decoder has some influences too.


For sure, and I don't know the THD of the tube presets etc. I also think Michael mentioned somewhere that it's difficult to compare tapes and tubes, because tape saturation seems to have more significant effect on the sound (when THD is equal).

I did use another tube simulation (x3) and compared it to the last repetition in Michael's files (3x tube booster). The results are much more similar then the sound I get trying the same with the TB+. But of course you are right- it's not a "proper" test. It would be much better if someone that has both libraries (or Michael) could provide some comparative files.
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Re: CDSM

Postby cdsoundmaster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:36 pm

Just a quick note to let customers know that I've gotten a lot of the update emails sent but have more to go. I will be out for a few hours and get right back to it asap. So, if you have not received your update yet don't worry it will be as soon as possible.
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Re: CDSM

Postby yr » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:57 pm

Thanks for the explanation. I remember you mentioned in the past that the vst analyzer only shows the lowest dynamic level sampled. Do you know what causes that? I'm also wondering if there is a way to view the rest of the sampled layers (perhaps using different tools)...
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Re: CDSM

Postby richie43 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:03 am

I'm not bashing y'all who want to check things out with an analyzer, but my experienced analog ears say that these new tube libraries from Michael sound amazing! I purchased them as soon as I got the email. Thanks Michael for continuing to keep my skepticism for digital audio at a very, very low level.
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Re: CDSM

Postby yr » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:11 am

richie43 wrote:I'm not bashing y'all who want to check things out with an analyzer, but my experienced analog ears say that these new tube libraries from Michael sound amazing! I purchased them as soon as I got the email. Thanks Michael for continuing to keep my skepticism for digital audio at a very, very low level.


They sure do. It's more of a general question to Michael and slightly OT. Richie, since you have both libraries (TB & Tube-booster) could you perhaps make a small comparison?
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Re: CDSM

Postby vicnestE » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:10 am

Use them as send fx is a good tip for mixing different type of saturations. Thanks!
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Re: CDSM

Postby DavidMeShow » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:40 am

vicnestE wrote:Use them as send fx is a good tip for mixing different type of saturations. Thanks!


Interesting! I should try this! Thanks! :P
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Re: CDSM

Postby cdsoundmaster » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:49 am

As far as analysis, I test things up, down, left, right, and upside-down because I've learned that nothing ever ends up being the logical results I might expect-lol! Just when you think you can lean on science for consistency, the true complexity of things shows through. I usually start by sampling an insane amount of steps, a single step, a long series, medium series, and short series. I run them through sample sessions with only one rep at a time so I have no question as to the response of each sample. An example is to look at a console with a really wide dynamic range, and it will look extremely non-linear above the hearing range- like above 29kHz, but in the higher gain samples where the snr is much better- this will be almost linear. The only way I know to be certain of what I am seeing, is to test them on their own one by one. Once I have seen that each are correct with frequency and harmonics, I can trust the series. This is usually the only way that I can debug if there ends up being a bad sample as well. One time a customer noticed a weird response in a preamp program that I thought was fine. After going through dozens of individual samples from that session I found a tiny little skip in just one dynamic layer, and once it was removed everything was perfect.
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Re: CDSM

Postby cdsoundmaster » Fri Sep 09, 2011 5:56 am

Ok, I am back to work on the web page and manuals, so here is just one of the audio samples of... something :-)
I'm hoping to post in a few hours if all goes according to plan.

http://monumentalaudio.com/BASS1-BEFORE ... -3-4-5.mp3

Notice a completely different kind of drive than TB+, and how the overtones of the actual instrument get bigger with each instance. By the time the actual drive is really audible, it becomes almost engrained in the actual overtones of the musical content. The drive towards the last instances is very forward and sounds shaped like the music and not going against the grain of the music. This is the energy in the higher order harmonics, which I think sounds typical of the even-order harmonics in higher orders. For whatever, this is something I just never hear correctly in plug-ins or harmonic generators, but Nebula sure does deliver. It is hard to get it there, but once it is there- yippeee! :-0
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