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Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby lordnielson » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:13 am

rhythminmind wrote:It's correct. All compressors work this way. (other then Digital look ahead compressors.)


Gotta say that none of my hardware comps work that way. If they did then they wouldn't realistically be all that great for smoothing out performances. The hardware 1176 will do it in "Nuke" mode though.

Not trying to be funny or argumentative. Just stating my experience.
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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby elam » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:53 am

rhythminmind wrote:I'm sampling a custom recreation unit


My bad.I've should have read better (By the way I've read your blog about the construction of the unit if I remember well :oops: ) I need more sleep.

Unfortunately, I don't change my mind about this one :
rhythminmind wrote:I've noticed some Dev's are more willing to communicate then others.


For me nobody in the Nebula world ain't got sh*t to prove (or what ???!?).Complementarity is the key.Plus the fact that users still give away programs for free (Thanks Mathias for the latest release,good job boy!).

So thanks Eric for the comp. revisions, nice move.

And I repeat : money and "team work" IS compatible, but ego sh*t/selfishness AND true progression NOT.Trust me...

And yes, G. I'll give you feedback tonite as I promise ;)
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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby Mercado_Negro » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:07 am

rhythminmind wrote:It's correct. All compressors work this way. (other then Digital look ahead compressors.)


I think you misunderstood my point here Eric. I'm talking about the very first transient in the VM-Comp example. Take a look at the rest of the examples, none of them has that BIG transient. That's not correct (unless the real unit works this way, which I doubt being a praised unit AFAIK).

As Nielson said, none of the HW units I've used (Drawmer, LA-2A, 1176: an UREI, Millennia, A****n, etc.) does this weird thing on the very first transient which is what pisses me off of Nebula's comps. It's frustrating when you set a comp up and then when you listen to the whole mix the very first transient of those tracks where you used that comp sound that HArd.
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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby rhythminmind » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:15 am

lordnielson wrote:
rhythminmind wrote:It's correct. All compressors work this way. (other then Digital look ahead compressors.)


Gotta say that none of my hardware comps work that way. If they did then they wouldn't realistically be all that great for smoothing out performances. The hardware 1176 will do it in "Nuke" mode though.

Not trying to be funny or argumentative. Just stating my experience.


I'm not trying to say there haven't been issues with nebula & transients, But proper functionality might be diagnosed as a bug in some situations.
All usual compressors (hardware or not) really do function as I described earlier.
Attack time = duration before compression happens.
release time = duration for compression to dissipate.

The 1st transient any compressor gets will be louder then any transient caught in the "release" duration. Most of the time release durations are shorter then the duration between hits so it's not an issue. But with long release times it will happen on any compressor. VariMu's have really slow Atl/Rel times in general. This is why they are so often used in mastering. They adjust more of the overall dynamic then the individual transients. The example I posted is with extreme compression. Look how much the the waveform is compressed during the loud section.
If you look at the group of rapid hits on the other examples. It's the same effect happening on a quicker scale. Those rapid hits fall into the "release" duration & in turn are softer.
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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby Mercado_Negro » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:07 am

Thanks Eric, nice explanation. But now I'm curious about something. You say it's correct and it has to do with the release stage that's not over yet so with the very first transient, since there's no release stage, this is expected. I'm following your logic here (a simple loop of one section will demonstrate this: the very first transient won't be that loud on a second pass). This is all OK, that's how compressors work. Now, please explain to me why the very first transient on the rest of your examples look OK? I just did a quick test with some bass drums and some compressors: Alpha, The Glue and Alex's 4KD:

Transients.png
Transients.png (18.85 KiB) Viewed 826 times


There's no release stage either for the first transient with the Alpha or The Glue so how come they treat it like that? I have never experienced anything like this, software or hardware. Transients are treated different depending on the release stage, cool, they don't sound the same but *missing the first bit of the 1st transient* like in the example above is just weird, I think.

I'll try to process something with some of the HW's I mentioned in my previous post during the week. In the meantime, could you please process this sequence of tones with the real Varis and post a screenshot here? It would be really appreciated. Thanks!
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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby Mplay » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:22 am

I can get the same spike with any digital comp with slow attack and long release. I remember reading that people were having the same issue with Paul Frindle's DSM. He wrote it's normal behavior. To work around it you can either use less gain reduction, decrease release or even automate the attack to clamp down hard on the first transient and then relax again. Automating the attack is more difficult with Nebula because you can't have instant attack, but since we have sidechaining you can add some pre-delay to the sidechain channel to make Nebula catch those first transients.
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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby rhythminmind » Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:52 am

@Mercado_Negro
The results of your testing is normal. The spike your seeing on your transients is the non-compressed area (it will be the duration of the attack setting).

This is the basic chain of events for compression.
1. Compressor stays off for the length of the attack setting.
2. Then the compressor kicks in & lowers everything after it for the duration of the audio that's above the threshold.
3. Then once the audio is under the threshold it will de-compress for the duration of the release setting. The next audio event above threshold will re-trigger the cycle regardless of where in the cycle it currently is.
Transients.png
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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby Mercado_Negro » Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:59 pm

Guys, I know how compression works :) Please don't take my posts as a misunderstanding of compression basics (though I appreciate your time) :)

I'm just saying (and demonstrating in my previous post) that Nebula can't deal with fast attacks (4KD was set to 3ms there), that's all. Please take a look at all the second transients in The Glue, Alpha Comp: they're *similar* to the first transient (not identical due to the release stage, that's OK). 4KD's first transient is waaaaay too different and there's where the "can't deal with fast attacks" come into play, and that's why "this isn't reproducible in SF or HW" because even when the first part of the first transient is different than the rest because it is not affected by the release stage, this is just plain wrong and a misbehavior in any compressor.
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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby AlexB » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:31 pm

Only to be clear.

1 - mercadonegro: in the 4kd, and MWD and so, the attack release values aren't prefects but they are like in the hardware, so if you set 3ms attack you haven't exactly 3ms physical attack. I prefer to maintain the imperfection by the hardware instead to set precisely values like in the digital plugins.

2 - Nebula libraries are cheap, impressive cheap compared to other plugins. For example if you buy the UAD1176 you spent 10 times the cost of the relative nebula library.
Why don't have more than one 1176 libraries ?
With the same cost for a "classic" plugin you can have ten or more libraries with little sonic differences between them, and I think that we are lucky to have TEN different real 1176s in the arsenal, instead of ten instances of the same digital plugin/library ! 8-)

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Re: Erics gearing up for a nebula 1176

Postby yr » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:46 pm

@ Mercado_Negro did you update to the latest Nebula version? I'm asking because I set out to prove your point (which is what I had always issues with) by posting some examples of files processed by HW vs Nebula. Only since I updated this morning I can't recreate the problem of the first transient being that much louder. Good news. You are right in my opinion to say hardware in fact does not exaggerate the first transient that much after a pause. Here is a pic of squashed drums (15dB GR) via G-SSL (3ms attack):


G-SSL.PNG
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