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Transient loss

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Re: Transient loss

Postby Cupwise » Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:34 am

RJHollins wrote:
No one has outright said that 2 versions of a particular
patch can exist [simply by renaming the patch name] so
that a WORKING copy, and a FINAL RENDER copy could
be selected. [the CPU hit seems a major deterrent].

2nd ... The mod being referenced to a 'clean' kernel
ONLY is something that raises the eyebrows :shock:

If only a single, clean kernel is being used ... does
this not fly totally against the efforts of NEBULA's
initial strength ... multi-level convolution ???


a)well, yes 2 versions of the same patch can exist like you suggest. but your idea of having a button switch between them would be problematic because a patch saves the state of all of the controls too, so your settings would be erased, just like when you load a patch.

b)the clean kernel is going to be the most important by far. it's the main body of what you hear. but, YES, the harmonics are also part of what makes nebula what it is. it's just one of those diminishing returns kind of things. switching clean kernel would make a much more noticeable difference compared to switching the others. still, you can switch them if you want, just keep in mind what people have said about artifacts, and realize you're taxing your cpu much more for what might not even be noticeable at that point. especially with a high end console program, for example, where those kernels are so low, due to those more expensive consoles being so expensive partly because of their low distortion levels. If it's debatable how much of an improvement switching to timed makes with the clean harmonic, think about what difference it makes with h2-h10 if they are 50+db below clean harmonic and masked by it.

david1103 wrote:
interesting! if a program, like doc fear has a clean kernal length of 90ms, would reducing it to 50ms not effect quality? some eq's have 180ms clean kernal. has anyone tested the effect of reducing kernal length? why would developers have such long ones?


well, for most things besides compressors, 50ms for clean kernel is the default that NAT 'renders' stuff to. i'm sure giancarlo/acustica did some research/testing to come to that figure. it probably had a little to do with balancing the program rate (getting it as fast as possible), but also having a fair length to the kernel to impart the tone of the impulses onto the signal. longer kernels mean slower prog rate, so the two would have to be weighed out for a figure to be decided on. i noticed one thing myself not too long ago when looking at some impulses, a 'low frequency' cyclic part of the impulse lasted almost exactly 50ms. it was really prominent then right after it came back down to 0dbfs, it flattened out, at 50ms. it made me wonder if that had anything to do with the 50ms figure. could have been pure coincidence though.

anyway, i've always thought 50ms seems to be the upper limit for having meaningful information (significant stuff still above the noise floor) still occurring in the impulses (for preamp type dynamic programs). so i don't see any reason why you'd go over 50ms. BUT maybe those developers who made those programs actually did listening tests and thought that it made an improvement to have those longer lengths. or maybe it was somehow accidental. there are a lot of little things to keep track of when developing programs, and it's REALLY easy to forget to re-adjust something, etc. you'd have to ask them. i would say that reducing a 180ms kernel for an eq down to 50 would be barely noticeable, if. but again that's my opinion.
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Re: Transient loss

Postby RJHollins » Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:28 am

Hi Cupwise,

a)well, yes 2 versions of the same patch can exist like you suggest. but your idea of having a button switch between them would be problematic because a patch saves the state of all of the controls too, so your settings would be erased, just like when you load a patch.


Thanks for confirming having 2 versions ... this opens
the opportunity. Not sure where the 'button switch'
idea stemmed from [not my suggestion]. My interest
was being able to load 2 NEBULA instances, one with a 'normal'
patch, and the second with the mod, so as to be able
to A/B switch-compare manually. Most important that
2 versions can exist simply by modifying the filename.

You mention Consoles, being usually low in kernel counts.
The consoles would be my first interest to mod, as they
usually are one of the 1st instances I go to.
I don't recall too much reference to consoles over
the past 15 pages ... in particular, tried & true
mod settings to go with. I'll go back for another re-read,
but if anyone recalls a specific console mod setting
and could re-post ... that be very nice! 8-)

as an aside ... I really miss NOT being able to use
my NAT app that came with NEBULA. Ever since the last
upgrade [to Server], my NAT app has several issues ...
like crashing, or when I get it to run, the main window
cannot be expanded [dual screen setup] so that I can
navigate the way I used to. Hope 'G' gets a fix out
for this SOON!

Anyway ... THANKS Cup! and everyone pushing the envelope.

BTW ... it sure helps having comments [insights] from
the guys that have actually worked on making libraries.

Sincerely.
i7-5820k, MSI X99A Plus, 16 GIG Ram, Noctua NH-D14, Win-7 Pro [64-bit], Reaper-64

NVC [Nebula Virtual Controllers]
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Re: Transient loss

Postby yr » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:23 am

@RJHollins- You can create a separate (modified) preset by pressing "edit", changing the name and using "save as".
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Re: Transient loss

Postby Cupwise » Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:57 pm

RJHollins NAT 'crashes' a lot for me too. it usually happens the first time i re-size or move any window after opening NAT. one time i decided to call its bluff and just moved the error message window that pops up, and continue using NAT. it still works. even if it was in the middle of rendering a program, it continues to do it. all you have to do, is drag that window that pops up out of the way and continue working. it has no effect on anything unless you click 'ok' or whatever in that window, then NAT closes.

yes that's annoying but it's 100% better than not being able to use NAT.
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Re: Transient loss

Postby enriquesilveti » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:04 pm

as an aside ... I really miss NOT being able to use my NAT app that came with NEBULA. Ever since the last upgrade [to Server], my NAT app has several issues ...
like crashing, or when I get it to run, the main window
cannot be expanded [dual screen setup] so that I can
navigate the way I used to. Hope 'G' gets a fix out
for this SOON!


No NAT Crash here, W7 SP1 x64! NAT from Nebula3 PRO and Server are almost the same. NAT is a stand alone portable app. Upload your NAT folder and send me an MP with the URL and I'll try it.
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Re: Transient loss

Postby Cupwise » Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:28 pm

yr wrote:@RJHollins- You can create a separate (modified) preset by pressing "edit", changing the name and using "save as".

yes. and a quicker way to do it, if you want to do several, is to open NAT, go to the.. i think it's 'edit' or 'list' section, find and add any programs you want to make duplicates of to that list. then go down the far left column which is filenames, and edit those, maybe add something at the end like '_timed' or whatever. then hit 'save', and i'm almost 100% sure that it just generates copies of each n2p with those new names, so it's not actually changing the original filename. anyone who tries it should do a quick test first just to make sure. you should also add something like 'timed' to the end of the program name which is the column to the right of that first one, just so that when you open Nebula next time you know which is which.

anyway, that would save a lot of time if you wanted to make copies of several n2ps at once. and like i said before, it would be possible to make a patch for switching kernels over to timed, which you could then use from that same area in NAT to convert the dupes you just made to use timed.
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Re: Transient loss

Postby musicgreator » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:06 am

Yes, a tool to change and copy multiple programs at once would be really cool!
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Re: Transient loss

Postby faun2500 » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:38 am

I can't believe how tricky it is to do these settings and on ALL my programs? No way - I will * something up! :x

Please, a RENDER MODE!!! (or something)
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Re: Transient loss

Postby vicnestE » Tue May 01, 2012 8:01 am

I'd love render mode too.
It's a huge detail/punch improvement for the final project with timed switched 1st kernel on tape and console programs.

Thank Tim (Cupwise) for the useful manul clicking tips.
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Re: Transient loss

Postby dpclarkson » Fri Jul 06, 2012 1:36 am

With the whole timed vs freq-discussion
aside, I recently discovered that stacking
same console channels on a track actually
increases transients and colors the sound
in each characteristic way.
I can imagine that many people feel that
the consoles from AlexB feel like placebos,
but that's because they're quite subtle in
frequency response. However, if I, for instance
stack 4-5 same API-pres on a bassdrum, the
well known A*I sound becomes more apparent.
Not only through more harmonics but also increased
frequency curves.
I also do the same with R2R, VTC, etc. and
it really colors the sound in a good way!
Top of that, the transients become more apparent
and makes it really easy to eq, and equalizers
will start to sound even more like hardware, even
the compressors, after you've processed your
tracks like this.
As long as you take care of proper gain staging,
the sky is the limit.
Although it is not a purist way of doing it,
but it get's the job done and really well!
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