Login

How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Tips & tricks, working results, technical support

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby ngarjuna » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:34 pm

scooter wrote:Wouldn't it be as simple as Normalizing the WAV file to -18dbfs "average" and not peak? Making sure to keep them at 32bit or 64bit float


If your host does that, then yes, it's a possible working method. However...I don't really grok the concept of normalizing to an average conceptually (I have no idea how other hosts handle it, mine doesn't do any RMS/average normalizing). The whole concept of normalizing involves taking the highest peak and setting it to the normalization value, adjusting everything else by the same amount. When you're talking about average, you're talking about the highest average value and matching that to -18? What kind of RMS window are you using (because that's going to vastly change your RMS reading)? Seems like an awful lot of "engineering" being automated in a way that's kind of out of control and arbitrary.

Gain staging used to be one of the main things that audio engineers worried about in a session. It's part of how you get nice sounding mixes (I realize this is a debated matter; suffice it to say I'm firmly in the "gain staging matters a lot even in digital audio" camp). It shouldn't be looked upon as an extra step (although, all too often, it is). Having 1000+dB of dynamic range doesn't render gain staging useless; there's a lot more to it than just making sure you don't clip. But even if you're in the "gain staging isn't necessary in digital" camp, using Nebula to replicate analog devices does require some attention to this detail.

Just my curmudgeony opinion. I also had to walk to school uphill both ways =).
User avatar
ngarjuna
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:04 pm
Location: Miami

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby fmacor » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:47 pm

If i'm hitting Nebula at -18dbfs, could i use the Nebula input gain to saturate like analog or do i only need to use the DRIVE?
fmacor
User Level 0
User Level 0
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:07 pm

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby enriquesilveti » Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:29 pm

fmacor wrote:If i'm hitting Nebula at -18dbfs, could i use the Nebula input gain to saturate like analog or do i only need to use the DRIVE?


The right way is using input gain, you can use drive also, but you will change the relationship between fundamental and harmonics, some times is good for create an exaggerated harmonics.
Enrique Silveti.
Acustica Audio customer and technical support.

MBP 11.5 (i7-4870 | 16 GB | 512 SDD)
SP4 (i5-6300 | 8 GB | 256 SDD)
UFX | Lyra2 | USBPre2
VM U15 | VM Win10 | VM OSX 10.12
N4/NAT4 | SPX3 | RX5 | LN2C | Smaart8 | R5 | PT12 | PX10 | NIK5
User avatar
enriquesilveti
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2663
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:00 pm
Location: Lodi | Madrid | Buenos Aires

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby fmacor » Wed Aug 25, 2010 3:00 pm

In wich way do the DRIVE will change the harmonics relationships?
fmacor
User Level 0
User Level 0
 
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:07 pm

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby mordecainyc » Wed Aug 25, 2010 4:11 pm

In another topic, Alex B said the following about this:
To set the gainstaging in the mix with nebula.
If you take -18dBfs as 0dBVU as reference, this -18dBfs are RMS value, not peak value. Also, I don't suggest to use - if it is not strictly necessary - a plugin to lower the audio level, use the Nebula input control.
Exsample: you have a kick drum track which sound at -6dBfs peaks. Put Nebula as first insert FX, load your preset and leave it flat (unity gain) than play the track. Lower the Nebula input control by -6dB, now you should read -12dBfs peaks on your DAW meter. That's all. Don't rise up the output level, it's not necessary. Now you can insert more Nebula or other plugin instance with the correct gain staging. Do the same at all your tracks.


see http://www.acustica-audio.com/forum/index.php?f=13&t=278&rb_v=viewtopic&start=50#p3733


FYI, this was a reply to my suggestion to put a gain trimming plugin (-18dbs) before Nebula plugins, and then another gain trimmer after to turn up the gain again.


Alex' reply sort of implies that (i) we should not use external gain trimmers (or DRIVE slide), but instead the input knob to reduce gain, and that (ii) the input knob should not be used to drive up the sound to go over the -18dbs (RMS) preferable gain stage, or at least not very much.


I guess we should use the input knob (instead of gain trimming plugs or DRIVE slide), but we should just be careful not to drive it up too much (i.e. just a few more db's than the preferable gain stage)? Am I right or does anyone have any other thoughts about this?
mordecainyc
User Level V
User Level V
 
Posts: 51
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby enriquesilveti » Wed Aug 25, 2010 5:34 pm

fmacor wrote:In wich way do the DRIVE will change the harmonics relationships?


Use Native Aplication Tools (Acustica Audio NAT) bundle with Nebula for test your EPs.

For this test I load an EP from AlexB MTP PRO, Test signal is -0.00 dBFS so I set Nebula input level to -18 dBFS. Then click on analyzer, select Harmonic Distortion and click on play. Change drive value, and see what happens.

Personally, I prefer to level audio files using non destructive virtual levels from Samplitude. Normally use -18 dBFS RMS due is European standard, but can I use -12 dBFS if I'm working with old DAT stuff due is a 16 bit media.

Sonalksis FreeG is in my FX rack but I prefer to use Nebula IO parameter against to load another FX into my plug-in chain. Pro Tools does not have non destructive virtual levels like Samplitude do I use much times Sonalksis FreeG RTAS than Sonalksis FreeG VST.
Attachments
NAT3_N3P_MTP_PRO_DRV000.jpg
NAT3_N3P_MTP_PRO_DRV000.jpg (184.29 KiB) Viewed 1946 times
NAT3_N3P_MTP_PRO_DRV+30.jpg
NAT3_N3P_MTP_PRO_DRV+30.jpg (184.42 KiB) Viewed 1946 times
NAT3_N3P_MTP_PRO_DRV-30.jpg
NAT3_N3P_MTP_PRO_DRV-30.jpg (184.37 KiB) Viewed 1946 times
Enrique Silveti.
Acustica Audio customer and technical support.

MBP 11.5 (i7-4870 | 16 GB | 512 SDD)
SP4 (i5-6300 | 8 GB | 256 SDD)
UFX | Lyra2 | USBPre2
VM U15 | VM Win10 | VM OSX 10.12
N4/NAT4 | SPX3 | RX5 | LN2C | Smaart8 | R5 | PT12 | PX10 | NIK5
User avatar
enriquesilveti
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2663
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:00 pm
Location: Lodi | Madrid | Buenos Aires

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby Puranon » Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:21 pm

The maximum you can increase Nebula gain is 6db. How could you drive it from 0dbVU to +18db?
Puranon
User Level X
User Level X
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2010 3:20 pm

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby highvoltage » Tue Sep 28, 2010 10:02 pm

you want -18 dbfs not +18.

but if you really want to boost that much, you must go into the EDIT page and increase PAD IN
highvoltage
Member
Member
 
Posts: 235
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:44 pm

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby RJHollins » Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:35 am

maybe this example will help clarify things for those not use to the analogue gain structure.

For my work, I use a 32 bit float format.

When dealing with levels I 'generally' find this:

my PEAK level is usually hitting about -6 dB ... NOW,
the [many times] will put my RMS levels at around
-18dB.

OBVIOUSLY ... the track material has an impact on RMS meter reading [there may be variations with different DAW's].

My work is mastering. So while I'm tweaking a track, my PEAKS will hit -6dB, while RMS [average level] hovers near -18 dB.

Of course, because of the mastering demands, my then use of a series of compressors & limiters will be used to raise the average level [RMS] to the client request [if NEED be], and I'll set my PEAK level to -0.2dB for duplication.

As aside ... I look forward to the day when NEBULA can handle compressors & limiters. When that day comes, then we'll know about the '2nd Coming' :shock:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
i7-5820k, MSI X99A Plus, 16 GIG Ram, Noctua NH-D14, Win-7 Pro [64-bit], Reaper-64

NVC [Nebula Virtual Controllers]
RJHollins
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2010 5:53 pm

Re: How do you make sure you are hitting Nebula at -18dbfs?

Postby budda963 » Wed Jan 07, 2015 5:26 pm

I am still trying to get a full grasp on this concept. The purpose of hitting at -18 is to not overload nebula or any other preset for that matter. Here's my problem: Blue Cat DP meter pro has 2 rms readings. "Max RMS" and "Average RMS". Which should I be using?

If I use the Max RMS -18 a VU meter will read 0 at the loudest parts of the signal and the peaks will be generally from -15 to -5dbfs. If I use Average RMS -18 the signal is substantially hotter with the VU will read 0 in the middle of the signal, and even clips the pro tools peak meters at times.

My common sense tells me that Max RMS is the right route but a lot of Internet posts (misinformation is dangerous lol) suggest that I should be using the Average RMS.

Lastly, if I use a normalizer set to -18 rms, the result will usually reflect the same Average RMS. Can anybody offer me some more detailed insight on this?
Macbook Pro Retina i7 (early 2013) 2.8ghz
Pro Tools 12
budda963
User Level VI
User Level VI
 
Posts: 67
Joined: Sun May 04, 2014 4:57 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Working with Nebula

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests