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Adding / editing / deleting categories

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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby ngarjuna » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:16 pm

Juanjo wrote:
ngarjuna wrote:What's not to understand? It's a tiny development team that focuses on plugin quality above and beyond usability; that has always been the case and there have always been people who hated the user interface. Since Giancarlo is apparently pretty wrapped up in AU implementation and the server piece, I wouldn't expect a lot of dev attention to the UI in the super near future. And it makes sense: both of those projects would seriously increase Nebula's functionality; alphabetical sorting and category naming might make things a big cleaner and more streamlined but they basically bring no new features to the table. It's about function over form. It's a valid paradigm even if it's not yours.


Man, why the agrssiveness? I think I make valid points, you might not agree but I don't think you can say they are not worth discussing: sorting a list of categories alphabetically and increasing the display size for category names a bit cannot be that hard, or time and resource consuming.

Actually I'm usually pro function over form, but as almost everything in life you have to find a balance, which imho Nebula doesn't have right now. Otherwise i have a Ferrari here for you: it's tight-sealed so you cannot modify it, plus it has no steering wheel and you have to operate the brakes with your nose... but otherwise it's yours if you want it ;)


Sorry, didn't mean to seem aggressive...like I said, this is not a new complaint that you're making and I would agree with you that it is indeed a valid paradigm. However, it's basically not the paradigm of the company/product.

Surely Giancarlo knows that he could have marketed Nebula a lot differently than he has; with a fancy, flashy, old-style hardware-like GUI. We only need look at the most popular plugins to know which GUIs are most successful. It's just his way of doing things, in the time I've been using Nebula and involved with Acustica community I have come to expect this kind of thing from G: he's a real stickler for function over form. I don't know if you ever saw the old website but it was an excellent example of letting presentation go by the wayside so that he could dedicate himself strictly to improving the way Nebula processes sound.

Again, whether or not that's a good business decision etc. is not my concern; not my business, as they say. But as someone who (despite considering the workflow implications somewhat invasive) depends on the sound quality of Nebula I can fully appreciate the company's priorities. They just don't have extra bodies to throw at the amenities. But there's a huge upside to that too: Nebula is affordable. That's something you have to sacrifice immediately when your business model starts to bloat.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to sort programs and categories more easily; I personally invested a ton of time into making FX chains for REAPER specifically so I would't always have to cruise through that tiny Nebula menu to pick programs that I use over and over; would have loved to have spent that time doing something else. But I'd rather have a Nebula server (personally I hate Macs and I'm sorry for any business that feels that they have to cater to such a tiny fringe but alas there is apparently a lot of demand for AU so I can't complain there).
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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby Juanjo » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:44 pm

Yeah i know that complains about the gui are not new, i probably was one of the first ones to complain back on the old site.

But who's talking about flashy, hardware-like gui, or marketing, or anything like that? I'm a minimalist at heart and the current 3D skins with hardware-like knobs et al look horrible and totally unnecessary to me. I'm talking about USABILITY i.e. the ability to take the best advantage of the awesome underlying engine by simply not getting in the way gui-wise. Believe me, I'm all for sound over bling, but I'm talking sorting a list alphabetically here, nothing else ;)

Btw, i'm with you on the mac development, it's lost time TO ME. Same goes for Cuda development and Nebula Server, for me they are of no use. But hey, I can appreciate that other users seem to find those developments really useful so I'm not going to get in the way at all, bring it on I say. But man, same could go for such a simple request as sorting a list alphabetically: with the amount of libraries around, it would be really useful and time saving TO ME, so I expect to at least be able to voice my opinion in the company forum... and hey, it was an afterthought anyway, initially i just wanted to suggest a workaround for the OP :)
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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby ngarjuna » Wed Jul 07, 2010 5:54 pm

Juanjo wrote:Yeah i know that complains about the gui are not new, i probably was one of the first ones to complain back on the old site.

But who's talking about flashy, hardware-like gui, or marketing, or anything like that? I'm a minimalist at heart and the current 3D skins with hardware-like knobs et al look horrible and totally unnecessary to me. I'm talking about USABILITY i.e. the ability to take the best advantage of the awesome underlying engine by simply not getting in the way gui-wise. Believe me, I'm all for sound over bling, but I'm talking sorting a list alphabetically here, nothing else ;)

Btw, i'm with you on the mac development, it's lost time TO ME. Same goes for Cuda development and Nebula Server, for me they are of no use. But hey, I can appreciate that other users seem to find those developments really useful so I'm not going to get in the way at all, bring it on I say. But man, same could go for such a simple request as sorting a list alphabetically: with the amount of libraries around, it would be really useful and time saving TO ME, so I expect to at least be able to voice my opinion in the company forum... and hey, it was an afterthought anyway, initially i just wanted to suggest a workaround for the OP :)


Fair enough. I certainly support your right to voice your opinion in the company forum, that is what it's for :); my reply wasn't meant to 'silence dissent', just to offer a different perspective.
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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby futur2 » Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:34 am

Juanjo wrote:Btw, i'm with you on the mac development, it's lost time TO ME. Same goes for Cuda development and Nebula Server, for me they are of no use.


yes, yes, yes. while i see the need for a mac development i somehow doubt the server and cuda efforts...
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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby rossiko » Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:47 pm

I think usability/functionality/workflow are really important in software. Its fundamental to everything else the software can do. I think its a shame the developers of this software seem to have ignored it. As it is its a mess imo, but there isn't any other choice.
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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby himhui » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:06 am

The idea of SERVER is still great if it really works. It is the only way to let us fully utilize those nebula presets in the coming several years!

As for the workflow, I think it's still more convenient comparing to that of using hardwares....
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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby RJHollins » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:14 am

I think the navigation problem within NEBULA has really surfaced with the increasing number of libraries that are released ... and more to follow [i hope].

The AU development must certainly be deflecting any major VST enhancements.

As others have said ... this is truely an issue, and hope that relief will come BEFORE carpal tunnel :o

godspeed for our developer ! :D
Last edited by RJHollins on Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby Juanjo » Wed Jul 28, 2010 9:42 am

himhui wrote:As for theu workflow, I think it's still more convenient comparing to that of using hardwares....


But that's exactly the point, hardware has LOTS of built-in physical, design-related and cost-related limitations that software doesn't have:

- Designing software to SOUND like hardware is why we are all here, and of course sound should come first, nobody is saying otherwise

- Designing software to LOOK like hardware is usually a bad decision in my book, although I understand that's a matter of taste

- Designing software to ACT like hardware is just plain and objectively wrong from a usability point of view: you are autoimposing arbitrary limitations into a piece of software. And the "familiarity of hardware" argument doesn't hold either, nowadays most users are more familiarized with software paradigms than with hardware paradigms.

If the best thing you can say about a software workflow is that it's still more convenient than hardware, then it's a badly designed software workflow from a usability point of view ;)
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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby giancarlo » Wed Jul 28, 2010 10:30 am

we decided the graphic interface making something in our opinion "cohesive". Workflow of the graphic interface was not our main scope, the product is there for replacing hardware so the main point is making it "look" as hardware, otherwise a lot of users could not understand it properly. Things changed during years, we'll improve the workflow because it's one of the most requested things, but I'm more and more interested in the "user experience" from the cohesive point of view. I want you "touch" nebula like it was hardware, instead of a gray interface with a simple preset selection managed by menus. This is my vision of software, everything should be handled in this way. You should be able to move, touch, rotate your device. I know that it's not relevant immediatly or prioritary, but it's something which could increase the user experience from the EMOTIONAL point of view, which is the main scope for a tool used for artistic purposes.
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Re: Adding / editing / deleting categories

Postby rossiko » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:57 pm

I quite like the look of the skins that are available, I like the way people can upload there own & we have a nice range of ideas. I think you have to have a balance, operating the simple things like eq or compressor parameters you can get away with a hardware like front end but menu navigation & the more complex menus should not feel like we are using one of those awful lcd displays, imo of course.
The ability to arrange & edit our library in a simple and quick way is essential in such a product.
I think it would also be helpful if you could access detailed info about each preset. An info button next to each preset that could give us access to tips on how to use the preset, info about the hardware its based on, maybe the ability to add our own notes would be most useful.
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