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Nebula version 1.3.903 released

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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby Support » Mon Jun 08, 2015 11:37 am

javahut wrote:God... I don't know where to start.


First, I've spent a month and a half trying to solve a new problem with my PC, and in the process... rebuilding my audio PC to a 5930k from a 980x, new 32GB DDR4 RAM (from old 24GB DDR3), new SSD Samsung Pro 1TB for audio and samples (OS is and has been SSD Samsung 840 Pro 500GB), reinstalling everything from scratch. Uninstalling recently updated plugins... trying to figure out what's causing the problem. Thinking it must be a "bloated" Sonar. Purchased Reaper and started trying to learn it. Realized there's too much in Sonar's workflow I can't do without enough to spend time learning Reaper. Back to trying to figure out the problem with Sonar. Purchased server version of Nebula. All to no avail... as I continued to have the same severe audio engine drop out problem that's been plaguing me for the last month and a half continue.


Then on a whim... I uninstalled the 1.3.903 server completely... reinstalled the Pro version of 1.3.846, making sure to completely rebuild plugins, xmls, and VST registry for Sonar. And... voila! Everything back to normal.


I don't know what you guys did to 1.3.903. All I know is... I can run a metric $h|T ton of Nebula plugins in a single project without problems in 1.3.846. I can't play through a project once with less than a quarter of that amount of Nebula plugins in 1.3.903 on the server version.


So anyway... relieved that all's working again after a month and a half of problems, and several thousand $$$$ later. Nice to have a newer "upgraded" PC (though I lost my PoweCore PCI in the process).


I just hope the guys at Acustica can figure out what it is exactly that's different about 1.3.903 from 1.3.846, and can fix it. Or figure out a way to explain in English what the difference is and what we need to do to make the newer versions of Nebula work as well.


For everyone that says 1.3.903 works better? Either you have something entirely different with your system than several of us here do... or you don't really use Nebula heavily. Because there is without a doubt a HUGE difference between the two versions... and I'm using a LOT of Nebula in my projects. And this makes 2 systems I've used 1.3.903 on now that both exhibited the exact same problem with the update (one wasn't an update, but a completely new install on a completely new, modern X99 system).


Can't wait to see if I see an even bigger increase with the 1.3.846 Server version (now that I own it) over the Pro version.


But I'm really kinda worried that Acustica doesn't recognize that there's a problem. And what's different in the newer version that might be causing it to perform so very much worse than 1.3.846, in some systems at least. Is there a setting in an XML or something for the new version? Something not assembled correctly? I don't know. But I'd hate to be stuck on 1.3.846 and now never be able to upgrade again. As much trouble as this has been, and as much time and money as this has cost me, I'm afraid I'll have to abandon Nebula after all this time using it, and go back to algo plugs for everything. Please, Acustica, try to solve this problem. There definitely is one. I really hope you don't ignore it. Maybe it'll work itself out in the next update (fingers crossed).


At least I'm back in the audio business for now, and out of the technology troubleshooting business... at least for a little while.


Hello.

First at all, it is very important to be careful in measurement and conclusion about those measurement in order to not draw in wrong conclusions.

9xx has several code re-witten to ensure multithreat, SEE4 and OSX 10.10 compatibility. Nebula and Acqua Effect load emulation presets and vectors using multithreat, several audio host can not handle in a efficient way this approach, and CPU cores are not synchronized correctly (Core1 CPU peak for example). In i7 v3/4/5 9xx works better with similar DSPBuffer setting than your ASIO/AC setting from 256 to 2048 values, before 9xx values around x2/x4 from ASIO/AC setting was the best setting for i7 v2 to v5.

We already test several times Sonar Producer x3e in i7 v2 and v4 and we can confirm that CPU efficiency is lower compared with other audio hosts like Reaper v4/v5b, also stability is lower.

We contacted Cakewalk and report this issue, but they did not replay us.

Please if you need more details reopen your support ticket, and sales department can refund you Nebula3 Server if you don't want/need CORE5 & CORE6 features.
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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby javahut » Mon Jun 08, 2015 3:47 pm

Support wrote:Hello.

First at all, it is very important to be careful in measurement and conclusion about those measurement in order to not draw in wrong conclusions.

9xx has several code re-witten to ensure multithreat, SEE4 and OSX 10.10 compatibility. Nebula and Acqua Effect load emulation presets and vectors using multithreat, several audio host can not handle in a efficient way this approach, and CPU cores are not synchronized correctly (Core1 CPU peak for example). In i7 v3/4/5 9xx works better with similar DSPBuffer setting than your ASIO/AC setting from 256 to 2048 values, before 9xx values around x2/x4 from ASIO/AC setting was the best setting for i7 v2 to v5.

We already test several times Sonar Producer x3e in i7 v2 and v4 and we can confirm that CPU efficiency is lower compared with other audio hosts like Reaper v4/v5b, also stability is lower.

We contacted Cakewalk and report this issue, but they did not replay us.

Please if you need more details reopen your support ticket, and sales department can refund you Nebula3 Server if you don't want/need CORE5 & CORE6 features.

That is very good and necessary information to know.

So one of three things has to happen.

acustica would have to somehow acknowledge sonar's multi-threading schema, and create alternate code that basically let's the daw control multi-threading of plug-ins... or at least lets nebula work as it used to.

cakewalk would have to acknowledge that its multi-threading schema is not exactly correct, according to acustica, and make base changes in the way sonar controls or utilizes multi-threading, in order to function properly with all future versions of nebula.

I'll have to learn a new daw if I want to continue to use new versions of nebula.

I have a thread over in the sonar forum concerning this. I'm going to post your information there, if you don't mind, & see if I can get cakewalk to respond.

and can acustica post a list of daws it thinks are most compatible with the newest core 6 versions of nebula... specifically for pc? if I want to continue to use the latest versions of Nebula, and have to switch daws to do so, I'd kinda like to know which one is most compatible with nebula's new multi-threading model, so I don't waste time learning one that's not as compatible as it could be.

thanks for your information.
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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby TranscendingMusic » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:16 pm

javahut wrote:
Support wrote:Hello.

First at all, it is very important to be careful in measurement and conclusion about those measurement in order to not draw in wrong conclusions.

9xx has several code re-witten to ensure multithreat, SEE4 and OSX 10.10 compatibility. Nebula and Acqua Effect load emulation presets and vectors using multithreat, several audio host can not handle in a efficient way this approach, and CPU cores are not synchronized correctly (Core1 CPU peak for example). In i7 v3/4/5 9xx works better with similar DSPBuffer setting than your ASIO/AC setting from 256 to 2048 values, before 9xx values around x2/x4 from ASIO/AC setting was the best setting for i7 v2 to v5.

We already test several times Sonar Producer x3e in i7 v2 and v4 and we can confirm that CPU efficiency is lower compared with other audio hosts like Reaper v4/v5b, also stability is lower.

We contacted Cakewalk and report this issue, but they did not replay us.

Please if you need more details reopen your support ticket, and sales department can refund you Nebula3 Server if you don't want/need CORE5 & CORE6 features.

That is very good and necessary information to know.

So one of three things has to happen.

acustica would have to somehow acknowledge sonar's multi-threading schema, and create alternate code that basically let's the daw control multi-threading of plug-ins... or at least lets nebula work as it used to.

cakewalk would have to acknowledge that its multi-threading schema is not exactly correct, according to acustica, and make base changes in the way sonar controls or utilizes multi-threading, in order to function properly with all future versions of nebula.

I'll have to learn a new daw if I want to continue to use new versions of nebula.

I have a thread over in the sonar forum concerning this. I'm going to post your information there, if you don't mind, & see if I can get cakewalk to respond.

and can acustica post a list of daws it thinks are most compatible with the newest core 6 versions of nebula... specifically for pc? if I want to continue to use the latest versions of Nebula, and have to switch daws to do so, I'd kinda like to know which one is most compatible with nebula's new multi-threading model, so I don't waste time learning one that's not as compatible as it could be.

thanks for your information.


Just to let you know javahut, I do beta testing here and I work exclusively with sonar so I can confirm Sonar's behavior. I can also confirm that cakewalk has ignored most of my requests in looking into this. Other issues I have reported to them they have acknowledged and eventually fixed with updates but not this.
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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby Support » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:42 pm

acustica would have to somehow acknowledge sonar's multi-threading schema, and create alternate code that basically let's the daw control multi-threading of plug-ins... or at least lets nebula work as it used to.


RE: Not possible. We can suggest cakewalk a solution then they should consider to implement it...

I'll have to learn a new daw if I want to continue to use new versions of nebula.


RE: We hope Cakewalk try a better implementation. Note that Nebula mutlithrearing is a very particular aprroach.

and can acustica post a list of daws it thinks are most compatible with the newest core 6 versions of nebula... specifically for pc? if I want to continue to use the latest versions of Nebula, and have to switch daws to do so, I'd kinda like to know which one is most compatible with nebula's new multi-threading model, so I don't waste time learning one that's not as compatible as it could be.


RE: Will be done in FAQ update. Our beta test team is using 3 main audio host, Reaper v5 beta the most compatible audio host for Nebula/Acqua, Traktion 4 (free) for JUCE implementation and Pro Tools first (free) for AAX implementation. Samplitude seems to be stable also but is more expensive than Reaper. We have others audio host in office due they have a more complicated VST/ASIO implementations, Wavelab and Logic for example.

Recommended computer requirements: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=26045
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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby javahut » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:18 pm

Okay. Well... I kinda think I know where each side is coming from now. As much as I love Nebula, and think the multi-threading control via Nebula sounds like a great idea... from Cakewalk's perspective, I'd kinda have to agree that it seems like the host should take care of each plug-in's multi-threading... not the plug-in controlling the multi-threading from within the host. What if every plug-in company decided to control their own multi-threading within the host? The host would have to deal with every plug-in manufacturer's implementation of multi-threading, along with the host's own multi-threading.


And if I recall correctly... Sonar was one of the first DAWs, if not THE first, to go x64 and design for multi-threaded implementation. I also know they worked quite closely with Microsoft to make sure they took advantage of what the OS had to offer. So they've been doing it a long time. Which could mean two things. One, they've been doing multi-threading of DAWs about as long or longer than any other DAW, so they should know what they're doing. Or, two, they've been doing multi-threading of DAWs so long, that the core multi-threading they're based on would be difficult to change at this point to allow each plug-in to control their own multi-threading from within the DAW it's running in.


I don't know. One of those things that's difficult to see coming. It looks like I'll have to make a choice between Sonar and no Nebula, or Nebula and a new DAW. Damn.


Come on guys. Work something out.
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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby TranscendingMusic » Mon Jun 08, 2015 9:37 pm

javahut wrote:Okay. Well... I kinda think I know where each side is coming from now. As much as I love Nebula, and think the multi-threading control via Nebula sounds like a great idea... from Cakewalk's perspective, I'd kinda have to agree that it seems like the host should take care of each plug-in's multi-threading... not the plug-in controlling the multi-threading from within the host. What if every plug-in company decided to control their own multi-threading within the host? The host would have to deal with every plug-in manufacturer's implementation of multi-threading, along with the host's own multi-threading.


And if I recall correctly... Sonar was one of the first DAWs, if not THE first, to go x64 and design for multi-threaded implementation. I also know they worked quite closely with Microsoft to make sure they took advantage of what the OS had to offer. So they've been doing it a long time. Which could mean two things. One, they've been doing multi-threading of DAWs about as long or longer than any other DAW, so they should know what they're doing. Or, two, they've been doing multi-threading of DAWs so long, that the core multi-threading they're based on would be difficult to change at this point to allow each plug-in to control their own multi-threading from within the DAW it's running in.


I don't know. One of those things that's difficult to see coming. It looks like I'll have to make a choice between Sonar and no Nebula, or Nebula and a new DAW. Damn.


Come on guys. Work something out.


I agree with this sentiment. I've been loyal to Sonar for 15 years now and one of the things I really like about what they do is being ahead of the times. The 64-bit and multi-thread implementation was an amazing step they took that no other so-called industry standard daw's had. My gripe regarding this situation was with the fact that they just ignore the request. I was trying to orchestrate a collaboration and get something going. So even with the idea that every plugin dev should probably be responsible for making it work, I think a daw company reaching out when being contacted about something so vital could facilitate in fixing the issue.

ALSO, sorry if I missed it but java which Sonar edition are you running?
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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby javahut » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:10 am

TranscendingMusic wrote:ALSO, sorry if I missed it but java which Sonar edition are you running?
Running the latest... Sonar Platinum x64. However, I don't have any of the extras installed. No Cakewalk instruments, no plugins from Cakewalk except the couple of Engineering FX I use for utility. So it's just Sonar and the Engineerig FX Suite. Nothing else Cakewalk is installed.
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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby Support » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:10 am

javahut wrote:
TranscendingMusic wrote:ALSO, sorry if I missed it but java which Sonar edition are you running?
Running the latest... Sonar Platinum x64. However, I don't have any of the extras installed. No Cakewalk instruments, no plugins from Cakewalk except the couple of Engineering FX I use for utility. So it's just Sonar and the Engineerig FX Suite. Nothing else Cakewalk is installed.


Post here the cakewalk/sonar post forum link. I'll be able to read it on Thursday.
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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby javahut » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:17 pm

http://forum.cakewalk.com/m/tm.aspx?m=3234101&p=3


Noel @ Cakewalk seems to have said pretty much the same as I posted above... that plugin manufacturers implementing their own control of multi-threading would quickly turn into a mess. The DAW should be handling the multi-threading. He seems to have thought about and discussed the issue with Aleksy @ Voxengo in the past, though. Although he doesn't recall being involved with this issue by anyone from Acustica. He seems willing to talk with someone at Acustica, but doesn't know who the person to contact regarding the issue of plugin multi-threading would be.


See above link to Sonar thread.
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Re: Nebula version 1.3.903 released

Postby TranscendingMusic » Tue Jun 09, 2015 4:28 pm

javahut wrote:http://forum.cakewalk.com/m/tm.aspx?m=3234101&p=3


Noel @ Cakewalk seems to have said pretty much the same as I posted above... that plugin manufacturers implementing their own control of multi-threading would quickly turn into a mess. The DAW should be handling the multi-threading. He seems to have thought about and discussed the issue with Aleksy @ Voxengo in the past, though. Although he doesn't recall being involved with this issue by anyone from Acustica. He seems willing to talk with someone at Acustica, but doesn't know who the person to contact regarding the issue of plugin multi-threading would be.


See above link to Sonar thread.


May be he missed my couple of emails to CW about this :roll: :shock:
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