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why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby yr » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:12 pm

biomuse- could you provide a direct link? Should be interesting to read claims of hearing a difference of -138dBFS.

I did the test the satisfy my own curiosity, and to check if Reaper's offline bounce would give significantly different results (as opposed to recording the output). Obviously, the conclusions that you can draw from this test are limited, but it does show we should be careful with generalizing. I haven't used logic in the last 13 years or so- it is possible that bounced tracks are somehow altered/different because of bugs/errors etc.
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby Tim Petherick » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:07 pm

I have had they same problems in bounces in every daw i've ever used .I've looked into the pan laws before .
I never render because of the loss of quality.I pointed this out to pro tools studio owner not so long ago .They never noticed until we started to do proper A/b's .

So i try to do complete mixes before bounce.
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby Tim Petherick » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:44 pm

I've noticed in samplituded pro trial that you can do a 64bit bounce.Which stops truncation? I think it sounds better......?

I'm not sure on this and don't really know the process so somebody else please chime in.
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby yr » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:13 pm

Just for fun I repeated my test using a stereo file (instead of a complete mix). Bounced and recorded track nulled to -138dBFS (exactly like the original test). The bounced track nulls perfectly (inf) with the original track.

If anything I'm inclined to say that the recorded track contains some insignificant errors when compared to the bounced track...
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby domandroland » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:06 pm

I did a couple more tests in reaper today with 3 instances of alex b eq on a breaks track and am pleased to say i can't hear a difference in mojo when bouncing at 32bit fp and null is infinite as far as i can see in span...Although as soon as i added an alex b input channel and master bus channel, i could no longer get it to null, I could hear the break playing very quietly without transients and on top of that, every time it cycled it sounded slightly different, so i can only assume it's that these particular programs are non linear. (perhaps alex or giancarlo could chime in here)

As far as that test between the daw's go...It's confirms my worries with logic which i have been using since version 2. It's a shame reaper and studio 1 were not included. Now that i use nebula more and more, i want to learn a new DAW as well as i know logic and was thinking reaper but now DP sounds interesting. Anyone here got any opinions on this that have used both extensively?
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby biomuse » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:09 pm

Yr: Not sure but I think, pace Frindle, you'd need to make at least two comparisons at once: one between the two ways of processing, and the other between any differences between the L & R channels themselves in each pair.

Here's the freaky Frindle link:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/music-co ... 5.html#144

domandroland: interesting!
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby yr » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:35 pm

Thanks for the link. It's a very interesting read (I've only concentrated on what PF wrote). Unless I've skipped something important, he actually uses dithering at -110dBFS as an extreme example of how low level sound can effect imaging even while using tape (that has much higher inherent noise). That is way louder then the -138dBFS I reported. But since I've repeated the test with a single track, basically showing that the changes/minute errors were in the recorded file (not bounced), things should be clear.

As for Logic, pro-tools and other audio software rendering tracks that seem to lack depth etc, ABX testing (which Frindle strongly recommends) seems like an easy/effective tool in this case.
Last edited by yr on Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby biomuse » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:10 pm

domandroland wrote:as soon as i added an alex b input channel and master bus channel, i could no longer get it to null, I could hear the break playing very quietly without transients and on top of that, every time it cycled it sounded slightly different, so i can only assume it's that these particular programs are non linear. (perhaps alex or giancarlo could chime in here)


A & G have indeed stated that Nebula isn't supposed to null with dynamic patches, so your result is as expected.

domandroland wrote:was thinking reaper but now DP sounds interesting. Anyone here got any opinions on this that have used both extensively?


I've used DP since the 90's. I tried Logic and Reaper a couple years back purely due to their popularity, but comparatively, I didn't like them enough to stay. I use Pro Tools whenever I'm forced to, but not otherwise.

All I can say is, objectively, MOTU does its darndest to stay ahead of the pack. They don't do much PR at all, and their products aren't cheap, but I'm consistently amazed by the excitement on the part of other DAW users when some feature is introduced in the new version that DP has had for years (that statement always starts religious wars, but I'm afraid it's the simple truth: per-track melodyne-style on-grid pitch editing, pre-rendering, a dedicated comping tool, timestretching, and many, many others, DP was, literally, years ahead of anything else - and because MOTU is so darned low-profile, few outside of the user base knew about it).

I find DP to be a gorgeously designed, utterly flexible environment that does audio editing as well as protools while having MIDI that is infinitely flexible and powerful, if not as decked out with loop-based conveniences as some other DAWS (and correspondingly, not as constrained by them).

Anyway, anyone would tell you that their favorite tool is their favorite, and I'm no exception. But definitely at least try DP out for a spell and make your own decision; you may find it hard to go back.

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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby mathias » Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:16 am

timp wrote:I've noticed in samplituded pro trial that you can do a 64bit bounce.Which stops truncation? I think it sounds better......?

I'm not sure on this and don't really know the process so somebody else please chime in.


as samplitude is now 64bit software, you can do that in a 64bit os-environment.
but be careful with the term truncation.
you truncate, when you go to lower bit-rates (e.g. 24bit to 16bit) without dithering. as to say, you cut the lower bits away and roundingerrors come into play.
you can avoid that with proper dithering.

when you work in 32bit float, there is no bitreduction taking place, so no truncation either.
instead you have a lot of room (mathematical), where calculations (gainchanges, timechanges) can be stored, so you won't "loose" anything.

the step to 64 bit is not about sound so much, but more about using computerressources better (ram for example). a good programmed 32bit software can do all you need without compromise to sound.
a bad 64bit software can ruin your audio easily.

some people (including paul frindle), were talking in the past about the often misunderstood fact (even by daw-developers), that every gainchange in a digital-daw has to be dithered. this goes for inputgain, fades etc.
otherwise you get accumulating errors, which will creep into the hearing range or just "veil" your sound.
in samplitude for example, you can measure dither-noise even in 32bit float.

i think there is still a lot, that is understood differently, by different developers, which makes different daws.
and everybody can choose, what he/she likes :D

interesting discussion!
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Re: why does rendering or bouncing lose mojo and 3dness in logic

Postby Tim Petherick » Wed Nov 16, 2011 2:03 am

Thankyou ,
I will read some more. So, riff64 wave is to do with what your talking about?
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