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Does Analog gear react towards the RMS? (Tapes, Consoles)

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Does Analog gear react towards the RMS? (Tapes, Consoles)

Postby o001o01 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:12 pm

Hey,
Do Analog gear really react to the RMS of the sound?
I have a feeling that they should be trigered by the inputs Peak rather than its RMS or Avrage (or EVf?)
Am I wrong?

Since I have never worked with any analog gear, I can never be sure how they sound exactly.
But I was wondering why Nebula uses EVF17 or RMS17 as default envelop flower and keeps PEAK mode as Legacy (for backward compatibility)

I have spent a HUGE time on testing different EVFS with All possibilities for Attack,Release,LookAhead and RATE,
On too many different sources with all type of Programs; with correct Gain Staging ofcourse.

The Results of my experiments shows me that with PEAK mode (Lowering Attack & Release) I get more Glued Sound than RMS17 or EVF17.

With all modes I can easily hear the Dynamic Layers switching regarding to the Input Level (Its so much easier to hear it with Programs like Lo-Fi Tape),
but in RMS17 or EVF17 the switching sound like fluttering and unrelated to the source, whereas with peak mode sounds lot more invisible ,RELATED and more GLUED to the Sound with faster response and less Robotic Aliasing Artifacts

the only Developer who I found is too much into this is Tim Cupwise whom says that he haven't done many tests himself. He started using Peak mode because he though it make more Sense in Theory
But what in practice?
Last edited by o001o01 on Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Analog gear react towards the RMS?

Postby Tim Petherick » Wed Apr 02, 2014 4:38 pm

Depends on what gear your emulating.

Compressors are sometimes slow detection feedback so slower envelope followers can be used.

In some cases slower EVF's can be used to cut down on artifacts, Which is opposite to what you are saying but you have many parameters to deal with in Nebula. Some dev's tweak for optimization, so it's good to keep that in mind.

Peak makes sense for alot of gear but it's weighing out pros and cons. For example smoothening cannot be used on splith mode..

A good idea to ask the dev why they used what but I totally understand why you ask, it makes sense. ;)

I remember Bob from Transending music started to use Peak back in the old days of Nebula and many of us do now....
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Re: Does Analog gear react towards the RMS?

Postby o001o01 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:03 pm

Tim Petherick wrote:Depends on what gear your emulating.

Compressors are sometimes slow detection feedback so slower envelope followers can be used.

In some cases slower EVF's can be used to cut down on artifacts, Which is opposite to what you are saying but you have many parameters to deal with in Nebula. Some dev's tweak for optimization, so it's good to keep that in mind.

Peak makes sense for alot of gear but it's weighing out pros and cons. For example smoothening cannot be used on splith mode..

A good idea to ask the dev why they used what but I totally understand why you ask, it makes sense. ;)

I remember Bob from Transending music started to use Peak back in the old days of Nebula and many of us do now....


what about analog gear without any detection circuit?
like Tapes or Consoles?

I used to think peak mode must produce more artifacts/aliasing (because of faster response), but mysteriously It does Less!(at least in my tests) even with faster release and Prog Rate. and when it Does it doesn't sound Robotic like RMS17 or EVF17.
If you mean what I mean...

What do you think the cones of PEAK mode are?

and what do you use yourself in your programs?
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Re: Does Analog gear react towards the RMS?

Postby Tim Petherick » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:23 pm

I've always felt that RMS is a good because you get smoother transition on any samples etc.

But I guess It can differ from preset to preset, Dev To Dev.

Tape I would think would be fast detection. Remember tape just saturates and creates a apparent slowness. It does not have a evf circuit so to speak but we need a EVF in nebula in order to create the changes in sound over input/output etc..
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Re: Does Analog gear react towards the RMS?

Postby botus99 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:29 pm

I can't speak as an expert, but in the few Nebula programs I've made myself and out of the one's that I've messed around with from 3rd party developers, there seems to be a tradeoff with using peak detection.

Personally, I ended up liking peak mode on everything that I had made/captured, but I can definitely see the advantage of using EVF or RMS mode, especially in certain compressors with slower attacks (as Tim P. pointed out).

I don't think you're insinuating this, but peak mode is not the all-around best mode for everything. It is a good thing we have the options available that we do :mrgreen:
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Re: Does Analog gear react towards the RMS?

Postby Tim Petherick » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:35 pm

Yes, I will say that 75% of my library's use peak though.

Occasional I use slower modes for varying reasons....
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Re: Does Analog gear react towards the RMS?

Postby o001o01 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:39 pm

Tim Petherick wrote:I've always felt that RMS is a good because you get smoother transition on any samples etc.

But I guess It can differ from preset to preset, Dev To Dev.

Tape I would think would be fast detection. Remember tape just saturates and creates a apparent slowness. It does not have a evf circuit so to speak but we need a EVF in nebula in order to create the changes in sound over input/output etc..


So am I the only one who hear Peak transition smoother than the rest?

the RMS based detection sound like transiting in square steps and PEAK more rounded and smooth.
I think the RMS or EVF cuss switching between layaers that is not Synced with the Input...

So do you think using PEAK on a Tape program would sound closer to the real thing? (regardless of artifacts)
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Re: Does Analog gear react towards the RMS?

Postby Tim Petherick » Wed Apr 02, 2014 5:47 pm

It's not so simple, as I said could be many reason you get less artifacts with peak. I'm not going to say what defiantly better for different styles of presets.

However I will say that 75% of my library's use peak.

Occasional I use slower modes for varying reasons....

Those steps that you speaking of can be improved on using slower attack,liquidity and/or smoothing
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Re: Does Analog gear react towards the RMS?

Postby o001o01 » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:07 pm

botus99 wrote:I can't speak as an expert, but in the few Nebula programs I've made myself and out of the one's that I've messed around with from 3rd party developers, there seems to be a tradeoff with using peak detection.

Personally, I ended up liking peak mode on everything that I had made/captured, but I can definitely see the advantage of using EVF or RMS mode, especially in certain compressors with slower attacks (as Tim P. pointed out).

I don't think you're insinuating this, but peak mode is not the all-around best mode for everything. It is a good thing we have the options available that we do :mrgreen:


What tradoff did you find with using PEAK detection?
Except compressor is there any other type of programs that take advantage of using RMS/EVF?

I wish someone who have compered Tapes with Nebula would jump in and confirm this.
maybe Michael?
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Re: Does Analog gear react towards the RMS?

Postby TranscendingMusic » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:20 pm

I had personally found that the knee also mattered with the mode used. For example my gsqueeze preset performed better with its abrupt knee, with peak mode but my 78 one, on rms. Perhaps the cleanliness of it is due to the fact that there is less signal to handle and can therefore handle it more efficiently. May be the other modes can serve the function even better if overall compression behavior can be increased with nebula. To me it always felt like peak was the mode that best served what nebula is capable of compression wise. There is a synergy there.
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