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Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Read!

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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Cupwise » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:49 am

david1103 wrote:The real mystery seems to be if you turn off all the distortion kernels and make it clean it STILL happens?! Even on a non dynamic program? :shock:


could you say what the prog rate on the program you're talking about here is?
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Tim Petherick » Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:50 am

Cupwise wrote:have you reproduced this 'detuned' artifact? or are you talking about the ringing? to me they seem like two separate things..


You seem keen on saying they are not the same thing , which may be right.but does it matter, As long as the tweaks help both problems, right? We need more examples of these other presets but as said in one of the first posts it would be unfair to pick certain presets, is it that they all have this sub problem then?
It sounds like you already know the answer for your 660 preset.slower pr for 2.0ms version and faster versions can stay at 0.750ms.
Like I thought with the shq program, you were saying it didn't have this problem? I thought we were agreeing that either slowing down P.rate or fine tune the P.rate cured this 'sub effect? Of course it's hard to say that it would work in all cases but It looks like it helps? and of course it's a quick fix and seems G is finding a solution.

Yes I did say I was having trouble reproducing tha sound even with lot's of hard harmonics But then again I have no idea how much distortion was Being sampled ( somewhere I have some guitar pedals sampled that I can test too and yes I'm sure they have this problem too)

The clip below shows something similar, a 'Robotic' sound as scene describes. here on a compressor.The high ringing comes in when you decrease/speed up the P.rate. at 2.0ms ringing is low/lower frequency.
It's the same with and without harmonics(as a side note the artifact disappears with no EVF) . Artifacts disappear on fine timed tweak and slower rates. The program rate is 2.0ms in this clip. ( compressor is the tnt but not at original released settings, original settings was 0.725ms program rate at 44.1 and 0.750 ms for 96khz as I stated in the 'sweet spot for dynamic gear' thread , the original of course does not have these artifacts, just anybody was worried about it)

Cupwise wrote:i don't think it has anything to do with a program having some tweaks or anything like that causing it. also scene has said that he has heard it in EQ programs, and since the vast overwhelming majority of those are non-dynamic, that would suggest it happens even without there being dynamics. i haven't personally verified that this is the case, although to be honest i've heard this before and i could've swore that i heard it in an EQ program that didn't have dynamics. so i think the main source of it is from the harmonics themselves, and not dynamics. as soon as i can, i'll test to see if upsampling resolves it, but i'll also look into seeing if i can resolve it with any of MY stuff that does have this issue, without needing oversampling... i have some ideas.

Did scene say he heard this in eq libraries, I thought he said he didn't but a singer could still hear acute artifacts? Also how many eq libraries are not dynamic? , I guess I had not look into other libraries, I will allways personally try and put dynamics into stuff if I feel it is changing a great deal over a wide range.

So, when using it clean we are now sure this particular preset does not have any of this artifact? Still trying to understand what the final answer is on this one. If it was still there, could it be that the preset just gets worse with harmonics too?




The most important thing I think is getting rid of it or reducing it , so we know two ways that can do this?, one of them already being used and seems to work? maybe I'm wrong here?and the other slowing down, will mean dynamics will be less accurate though I Guess.

It was originally a tip to help not a fix,

I mean all this in the best possible way.
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby cdsoundmaster » Thu Mar 13, 2014 4:07 am

Hi there,

I have never received a message regarding this, but I am reading to catch up on the thread.
There is good advice from what I have read thus far, but I don't know the conclusion yet.
Please always feel free to write me directly via email.
I do not have any current messages on the forum messages, but m a n g e l a r t s at a o l dot com is the quicket way to get me. If I missed your email somehow I truly apologize.

Without having finished yet, did you reply to the question of whether you have a flashing arrow?
I recommend RTE CNVT all the way up, using only reverb instance, and do not increase drive unless you know exactly what wrong artifacts sound like.
Other than this, all null and other types of tests are meticulously run on my programs along with others. I've actually created internal papers on the lack of validity in nullification tests but that is an entirely dif subject. At 32/96, if you get an audible artifact that is not intended and not similar to the equipment, there is definitely something uncommon going on. The first place to check is the audio interface setting, same setting in your DAw preferences, reverb instance of NebPro only, and the flashing arrow. If you have changed other items in your MAST page (and again, I have not finished reading the thread) then that can have a major impact on the sound if not using the original settings with the program.

scene wrote:Tim, you're the only developer who actually responded to my query. I didn't mention it, but about a year ago I also sent a message to Michael Angel (cdsm) and AITB. I didn't hear back from them.

The point is that "real" equipment does not produce this type of d-effect. I have a good selection of tube/transformer based unites and I can stuck them up and drive them anyway I want and they would never sound like that.

As I said it is very easy to hear this "artifact" on any monophonic, acoustic sound.

P.S Sorry for repeating myself
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby darren » Thu Mar 13, 2014 3:01 pm

Maybe, if it seems a general problem, this thread ought to be promoted to the 'working with nebula' subforum and considered by the devs?
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby giancarlo » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:08 pm

moved
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby giancarlo » Thu Mar 13, 2014 8:13 pm

no, I dont consider it an issue. I mixed so many songs in nebula (and so many songs were mixed) and it was so much an improvement compared to other plugins (we received so many mails stating that) that I exclude big issues. I damaged my songs using just few plugins from other devs, for sure not using nebula (where even in the case you process a track using 30 offline instances you cant find an appreciable issue). Try doing it using other products. And not, Im not over defensive. Just facts.
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Martinez » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:09 pm

I totally agree with giancarlo here.

However..., if there is a problem sound wise, wouldn't it be great to fix it?
That would make nebula sound even closer to the hardware devices.

Nebula still sounds a billion time better than algos though!
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby mathias » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:28 pm

giancarlo wrote:no, I dont consider it an issue. I mixed so many songs in nebula (and so many songs were mixed) and it was so much an improvement compared to other plugins (we received so many mails stating that) that I exclude big issues. I damaged my songs using just few plugins from other devs, for sure not using nebula (where even in the case you process a track using 30 offline instances you cant find an appreciable issue). Try doing it using other products. And not, Im not over defensive. Just facts.


well said, i totally agree too.

i need to be circumspect with every tool i use and be sure it does what i need and at the same time check if nothing goes wrong.

and to be honest, the "extra sound" i heard in cupwise program is not overnasty or destructive to my ears. it can very well be covered by the music and may never come to anybodys ears in an irritating way.

best,
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby giancarlo » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:38 pm

You make everything soooooo easy. Do you think really I have just a button like 'make it a bit better'? something magic I'm waiting to fix?

Provocation:

I'll do it if other developers find a way for improving their ones. Promised.
Each time a new plugin is announced on kvr I start testing it (hoping it is good in some way) and I discover after a while I'm adding garbage to my tracks, as long as the plugin count increases. I'm surprised few ones are speaking about this, because guys, I find it everywhere. Apparently the sound is perfect, though... no detune
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Tim Petherick » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:10 am

Ah, I think a lot of us would agree that nothing sounds like nebula! 8-)

I can't use anything else, well one or two other tools but they are things that can't be done analog if you know what I mean.
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