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Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Read!

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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Tim Petherick » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:29 pm

david1103 wrote:If we get oversampling I pray it will be optional... nothing worse than the sound of real time oversampling in so many plug-ins... urrrghhh!!


agreed I'm not the biggest fan of oversampling being FIXED. Second technique that G was talking about was interesting.
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby RJHollins » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:37 pm

I've read through this entire thread with interest.

I currently have not purchased Tim's 660 library yet [my apologies to Tim].

There was mention of other libraries ... but in order to help, can you post the exact library names AND the specific PRESET that has been identified showing this issue. There is a good chance I have some of these, and I'll be happy to help test ... but I need specifics before doing so.

Also ... I have experienced this 'strange' sound, however it was related to parameter settings that I was playing with. If I recall, I was pushing very hard on it. I don't know if that is the case here ... but we need not only the presets in question, but I would also need to see if the 'KERN' page has been modified [i.e.: using TIMED settings, or any change other than stock] ... otherwise we'd be searching and testing without direction.
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby scene » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:41 pm

Tim Petherick wrote:
scene wrote:The" affected" samples that I included are 96khz/32 bit and the Nebula programs that I use are also natively 96khz. At this resolution aliasing shouldn't be so audible. I've never heard a plugin that does it at this resolution unless it is designed as a lo-fi effect.


If this is aliasing then this is the worst case I've ever heard - it is some kind of "unstable aliasing"; Because it is both, frequency and dynamics dependent . The strength of this d-effect changes according to the audio it is attached to.


frequency and dynamics dependent? so when you remove evf it is still there? or it just gets reduced when removing evf?



As I explained previously, all suggested adjustments just tend to shift the problem into different areas of the audio that has been processed by Nebula .



Here is exactly what I said on the page 3:



"I tried all these suggestions, including yours. As I said, it just shifts the problem from one place to another. For example, in the audio file that I included, the d-effect is clearly audible when the singer sings the word "you" . However, if I follow some of the suggested changes then the problem seems to drift from the previously "troublesome" spots to just another place within the same audio take, where the frequency and dynamics have different flavor, attack or tonality...."



I think the thread got moving so fast, it is easy to miss some posts.
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Tim Petherick » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:44 pm

But your not turning off the evf in the evf page? Different thing....I mentioned this in the post after.

This would tell us if it was related to dynamic changes as a whole
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Cupwise » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:48 pm

anyone can test to find which programs do it and which don't, by grabbing scene's 'dry' .wav and just looking. it's that simple.

i'm almost positive that it comes from the harmonics. and that it happens with programs with high level harmonics (3rd time i've said this?)

so there's a clue where to look.

programs with high level harmonics.

run that wav through those programs. i know this doesn't only happen with my programs, so anyone who cares about this could just start looking at some programs they have and know to have high harmonics.

i don't think it has anything to do with a program having some tweaks or anything like that causing it. also scene has said that he has heard it in EQ programs, and since the vast overwhelming majority of those are non-dynamic, that would suggest it happens even without there being dynamics. i haven't personally verified that this is the case, although to be honest i've heard this before and i could've swore that i heard it in an EQ program that didn't have dynamics. so i think the main source of it is from the harmonics themselves, and not dynamics. as soon as i can, i'll test to see if upsampling resolves it, but i'll also look into seeing if i can resolve it with any of MY stuff that does have this issue, without needing oversampling... i have some ideas.
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Tim Petherick » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:55 pm

I'm in no way disagreeing with you.
That's the point we have no way of knowing unless we cancel out certain things.

so you are saying the program still has this issue when the dynamic side of the program is turned off? then I guess it isn't the problem

The reason I'm asking is that I'm pretty sure had the same problem with dynamic eq's of mine. But I thought you said on 1 kernals the problem was still there? so it's not there on clean?

I'm confused I guess..
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby scene » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:11 am

RJHollins wrote:I've read through this entire thread with interest.

I currently have not purchased Tim's 660 library yet [my apologies to Tim].

There was mention of other libraries ... but in order to help, can you post the exact library names AND the specific PRESET that has been identified showing this issue. There is a good chance I have some of these, and I'll be happy to help test ... but I need specifics before doing so.

Also ... I have experienced this 'strange' sound, however it was related to parameter settings that I was playing with. If I recall, I was pushing very hard on it. I don't know if that is the case here ... but we need not only the presets in question, but I would also need to see if the 'KERN' page has been modified [i.e.: using TIMED settings, or any change other than stock] ... otherwise we'd be searching and testing without direction.



The 660 "pass through" is not the most offending program out there. The reason it is discussed here, is because I talked to Tim about it privately, and he suggested to me to go public with it. Moreover, he was the ONLY ONE, who responded to my query.

The other reason I didn't want to mention other developers, was also because I thought the problem could've been due to my system set up. Moreover, the "effect" is not always pronounced with equal strength from program to program, and from audio to audio.

All I can say, is that many programs are "infected" by this aliasing.


I'm currently traveling with my laptop and I only have just a few selected programs that I tend to use a lot. As Tim suggested, you would be better off by testing your programs by yourself, preferably with some audio files that you're intimately familiar with. I can instantly hear this effect with cellos, violin, voices, clarinet and the majority of other "solo-acoustic- instruments". I can also detect it on fingerpicking guitars and pianos but only when auditioned though very good monitoring systems.
Last edited by scene on Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Cupwise » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:12 am

i didnt mean to suggest you were disagreeing with me, my last post wasn't directed at you, timP

just a few posts have been made about still having confusion about where to look or what libraries might have it, and i've gave suggestions where to look, and it's simple to check.

i don't think anyone knows much for certain yet. it could be aliasing like g says, it could be caused by the dynamics or not. if scene has heard it in EQ programs then it'd stand to reason that it happens without dynamics (unless he used one of the few eq programs that actually has dynamics).

but i just mean that anyone out there concerned about this could be quickly checking multiple programs. i'll be doing it as soon as i have time. anyone else who wants to can also. anyone sees any patterns itd be helpful if you reported them here.
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Cupwise » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:17 am

Tim Petherick wrote:
The reason I'm asking is that I'm pretty sure had the same problem with dynamic eq's of mine. But I thought you said on 1 kernals the problem was still there? so it's not there on clean?

I'm confused I guess..


yeah well, i'm kind of going on a hunch there, and i could be wrong. but i've had this issue happen in a program i was working on and i heard it while doing the program, and it definitely went away when i completely removed the harmonics from that program. it went completely away (this was a while ago).

anyway now when i checked the other night, just lowering kern count on kern page to 1 didn't remove it from a program that had it, but i have a hunch that lowering kerns that way is somehow buggy or something. i don't know how to explain it, but there have been times where i did that and got some really weird distortions and stuff, just from lowering a program to 1k. i just don't trust it at this point. i feel like if the harmonics could be completely removed from the programs doing this, the problem would go away, even if lowering kerns to 1 on kern page doesn't remove it. it's just a hunch at this point.

actually i have a program right now that i did to test neb's limits with distortion, made from a distortion pedal, and it does have the issue, but if i remove the harmonics it goes away.
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Re: Unwanted detuning defect in Nebula libraries: Please Rea

Postby Tim Petherick » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:19 am

Knowing the settings would help us get close to this sound trying it on our own presets.
I think it is important.


Program rate and evf settings, if it's dynamic and amount of harmonics could play a important part in trying to find the exact problem.
Last edited by Tim Petherick on Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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