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Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby babiuk » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:33 am

-Regarding to using nebula, I have always a similar scheme of working which is like in analogic from 60s:
The first step is to have all the tracks recorded and finished, the best scenario would be that all tracks are wet with room sound printed as I told. For drums I just have one track with all drums there. I always use mono tracks and 99% I work in mono till the end with a 2 channels mono master, it´s my choice.

Then I pass tracks through microphones presets, every track through the microphone you think it´s the best for it. Henry is adding a good mic's collection now, and yr has an incredible collection of presets (viewtopic.php?t=2467) including
amazing mics I use a lot, like a Beyer one. The best use for this I think is for excess of highs on drums using ribbon mics.

Then I pass every track through a same console input instance(I usually use or Langevin or Bogen). Then I pass every track through EQ´s from the same console (Highs and Lows) to correct the sound a little. Then I pass them again through output console instance. At this point the tracks have been virtually recorded and passed through the console.

Now I use gear presets on tracks, things like more tube eq presets(I try to use them sustrating not adding but sometimes you have to add highs if you use a tape preset which eats the highs like new apex 351H which I love) or Michael's tube stuff which is magic. I always pass every track by these tube presets just for adding it some character, even two passes, and through "bypassed gear" presets created by the developers, like alexb pultec bypass preset.

Now I´m going to tape, but first I like to think I have just 4 tracks(some times I used 8 but usually I think in 4) and I organize how to distribute the tracks in the 4tracks. I use to send drums and bass to the same tape track, so I create a bus group(I use reaper) and send both drum & bass to it. Guitars use to share same tapetrack.
Then, following the vintage analog chain, I pass every track (or group) through a tube compressor and then to a tape(the same for every track) and a instance of TB+. Tube Compressors: Fenix,VM Comp, Michael´s TDC... or even Tracks fairchild 670 with Henry MOJO 670 which is a wonder. Tape: now I use APX 351H like a crazy, it´s a wonder for me.

This way you have the 4 tracks recorded in tape. Now I create a new project importing the 4 files. I pass everytrack through a input console, recreating the analog proccess. The same console for all 4 tracks, I keep on using Bogen or Langevin. I add new EQ to some track if needed.
Then I mix levels and send the mix to a track. Now I pass it through a master tube(Fenix, VMcomp, Tracks 670 with MOJO670) comp and through master EQ (pultec, doc fear...) Then I pass it through tape instance (APEX ATR102 or Studer A800) and TB+.

Sometimes I use a plugin called Cuttertone I own which is like a proccess to prepare for vynil cutting. It does some tasks but I just use a highs limiting feature. I think it´s a limiter for highs but the sound I get is perfect for me, I use it in a so subtle way and it eliminita the harsh(Please tell me if you know any other way to do this in nebula cos I tried it a lot but nothing is similar, I just get EQ shelves). Anyway, when I use it, I like to put it before master tape, in order to have master tape and TB+ as last proccesses.

Well, this is so long post, excuse me please!

I hope you can find something useful
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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby mathias » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:35 am

russianpolecat wrote:Another thing that might be relevant is that a lot of that stuff seems to generally have a 'darker' sound (as much as anything because of the amount of ribbon mics that were used? I dunno). I personally think that the top end of a lot of modern records is nauseatingly over-hyped.

i was reading a comment from an old german soundengineer (he died a few years ago), where he mentioned the use of ribbon mics as a contribution for a good low fundament as well as a clear highrange. he spotted the highrange (10 khz and upwards) as something which should slowly roll off (which ribbons does), because there is mostly noise up there, which doesn't contribute much to the sound of most instruments. so care should be taken how to balance that "noiseregion" without affecting the clarity of instruments and the music overall.
another thing he mentioned is the reverberationtime in the lowrange, which he found much too exaggerated in many reverb uses (and real music halls, which the article was about), so this "wash" affects clarity too. the reverbtime should diminish gradually towards the lows, to get a good and stable lowend, that can "carry" the higher ranges, is part of his conclusions.

when i find the article, i'll post it.

mathias
system 1: windows 8 32 bit - samplitude prox, tracktion6, reaper
system 2: mac osx yosemite - reaper(32+64bit), tracktion6(32+64bit)

both systems on: macbook pro (late 2009), core 2 duo 3,06 ghz, 4 gb ram, graphic: nvidia geforce 9600M GT 512 MB
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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby babiuk » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:46 am

oops, I forget the reverb part.
I use EMT140 from VXNT. In the mix proccess I create a bus track with a instance of nebula with this preset(Dry to zero, just wet sound) and eq rolling lows and highs, and do sends from every 4 taped tracks to it.This way I mix the 4 dry tracks with the one wet and all is sent to master comp, eq & tape as i Said.
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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby russianpolecat » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:30 pm

Cheers Babiuk, that is really really helpful! It kinda confirms what I thought, passing trks through appropriate gear, and then again and then again etc. trying as much as possible to keep to a real world scenario process.

Would you say you use the Bogen more than the Langevin console or is it just a case of what sounds best to your ears for each trk? I also like the N**e sound - which is a little later I recognise, so I have the 8014 desk from AlexB for that when I want that kinda thing. Really like the N**e compressor from AITB to. The 'N**e' sound is my experience from being in bands and recording in various studios that had 80 series desks, so I've always have a soft spot for that kind of sound.

I've only just started to play with the libraries properly to be honest because I have been so busy with other things, and so I'm just going through everything and figuring out my 'process' - plus which chains of gear I like best etc.

Talking of Abbey Road 60's drums (I have vintage drummer too and sometimes use the bass drum from one of those kits because it is huge) - yeah, I go for a more roomy sound or just mono OH and bass drum mics (Coles) usually. I put a groove through the Bogen the other evening and I could really hear the beginnings of that sound that I want! I also really like the Fairchild 245 from Alex's PCS in combination with the Bogen for those drums - it's quite a bright sounding Pre, but because it is tube it seems to add something back in a smooth way (rather than brittle hi end - which, as I've said I don't like).
I'll keep experimenting! Thanks again!

Chris
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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby russianpolecat » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:38 pm

mathias wrote:
russianpolecat wrote:Another thing that might be relevant is that a lot of that stuff seems to generally have a 'darker' sound (as much as anything because of the amount of ribbon mics that were used? I dunno). I personally think that the top end of a lot of modern records is nauseatingly over-hyped.

i was reading a comment from an old german soundengineer (he died a few years ago), where he mentioned the use of ribbon mics as a contribution for a good low fundament as well as a clear highrange. he spotted the highrange (10 khz and upwards) as something which should slowly roll off (which ribbons does), because there is mostly noise up there, which doesn't contribute much to the sound of most instruments. so care should be taken how to balance that "noiseregion" without affecting the clarity of instruments and the music overall.
another thing he mentioned is the reverberationtime in the lowrange, which he found much too exaggerated in many reverb uses (and real music halls, which the article was about), so this "wash" affects clarity too. the reverbtime should diminish gradually towards the lows, to get a good and stable lowend, that can "carry" the higher ranges, is part of his conclusions.

when i find the article, i'll post it.

mathias
Yeah, I agree with that. Most of the time, esp with modern condensers - I find the U87 too bright for my taste for instance - I have to put some form of hi cut/low pass filter in there just to reign in the high end a little, I do it as a matter of course generally.
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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby elam » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:04 pm

I've recently produced an soul music artist who wanted "that" late 60's early 70's sound.Which when you analyzed it is very diverse from "house to house".What she wanted was the late 60s Stax sound.

I was able to get something she likes with VNXT EMT and the Langevin from STN the rest was just algo plugs.All guitars and basses strait to my interface,sampled drums and vsti!

I'm 100% with Babiuk,it's really how you play and produce the song more than the gears.I was playing some bass in the way I like,and something was wrong.
The rest of the tracks were played Stax style.When I swallow my pride and play it Stax style,all track fall in place.(and the bass sound itself was still way more modern).

I think Babiuk gave you the answer.Tube/tape and as much pass as you can and play/produce as they used to.
Last thing: make mistakes boy! If you play too perfect or edit too much you'll miss it.(I'm talking about 67 Stax style here only).Good luck.
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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby russianpolecat » Tue Apr 16, 2013 6:01 pm

Yeah, absolutely - play it a certain style and pass, pass and more pass! Thanks for the advice sir! :)
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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby tb-av » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:07 pm

Hi Babiuk... very helpful...

When you say you pass through X then pass through Y... Do you render a new wave file each time.

For instance let's say you have your instruments and place the mic presets on them. Do you then render those files out and for the next step use those processed files as the new starting point for the next process?
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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby babiuk » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:37 pm

tb-av wrote:Hi Babiuk... very helpful...

When you say you pass through X then pass through Y... Do you render a new wave file each time.

For instance let's say you have your instruments and place the mic presets on them. Do you then render those files out and for the next step use those processed files as the new starting point for the next process?


Well, I'm maybe thick as a brick but I do prefer to set some limitations in my working scheme because in digital scenario you are god and you can do everything, and this drives me crazy cos I cannot pay attention to the main thing, it's my fault but it is so. So I force myself to follow a scheme which is close to analog proccess, making so harder to go back. This way I go in destructive form but keeping every stage files(but I really never come back to them).
And it's not a file for every instance, I try to operate in blocks, I mean a first block could be "mic-input desk- eq desk-output desk", brcause in analog you test the tracking this stuff through, coming out from console
.
Next block is going to tape: "any Eq if needed-comp-tape-tb+". And so for every track. Then I go for mixing inputing every taped track in the desk again and adding eq or fx to every track, mixing levels and sending all to output bus+comp+tape+tbplus.
This is my basic, but I use to add a lot of gear and tube presets along the way for trying to get vintage sound, and this is not like analog proccess but just fighting against digital, hehe.
Doing things ghis way I have the tracks at the different points in the proccess. I even close project and open a new one with all the passed tracks when I finish a stage.
You can think it,s a dumb and tedious way and it really is, but working that way I feel more into it and the decision and choices are more important(well, you can go backwards to fix it but it's a hell to do it in my scheme so you never do it and you learn from mistakes for future) .

Excuse my writing cos I have to write in an Iphone while trying to sleep my little 6 months baby, hehe
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Re: Getting that 'vintage' 60's/70's sound with Nebula...

Postby babiuk » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:45 pm

I use to use a VU meter (Klanghelm, it is so cheap and the developer has done a great work) for testing in out every instance in order to keep the staging levels. I find that this is so important and when I began to do it everything began to go better. Do it if you don´t use to do it cos it makes things work better in a noticeable way.
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