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You need to provide a step by step installation guide

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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby giancarlo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:24 pm

we'll try to improve it, ok
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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby ngarjuna » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:37 pm

cc808 wrote:On a more philosophical tech point, it's not a general truth that users should need to know the guts of their machines in order to get good functionality from them, and this isn't the trend of development either. Most good installers (on osx anyway) are almost one click processes, with guided explanations delivered upon exit, because their developers value their users' time.


If you're talking about Microsoft Office or Hello Kitty Island Adventure, sure, it would be insane to expect users to have any clue what's going on inside the guts.

But you know what they call people who record/mix/master music/dialog? They call us engineers and it's not by accident. The fact that you essentially no longer need to know much about electronic components, tape decks, wiring, soldering, etc. to get this task completed makes having to learn a small amount of detail about one's operating system, disk/data structure, basic computer maintenance more than fair compared to the knowledge required to wear that moniker in days of yore.

Anyway, it's factually questionable: non-modular, non-customizable one-size-fits-all solutions like Pro Tools are the old, the newer DAWs like REAPER are extremely modular, customizable and take for granted that power users will write scripts and macros and hack their UIs.
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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby cc808 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:37 pm

No ones arguing for ignorance, just for the devs of software to maintain a respectful awareness of the time pressures & resultant knowledge contraints that their users are working with.. and to keep in step with the majority of devs who are humanizing their software accordingly.

You should also remember that many of us are musicians, composers & producers firstly.. advanced, gutsy tech knowledge was not expected in any of those fields in your days of yore. But the reality is, we are expected to have a far greater skillset nowadays (e.g. producing, engineering & mastering your own music, not to mention self-managing every other aspect of our business). There's only so many third degree removed skills that we can acquire before that primary creative focus becomes compromised.

Anyway, derailment aside. Acustica have commendably listened to the conversation, & that's appreciated.
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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby giancarlo » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:40 pm

I agree a lot with ngarjuna. When everything will be simple and straightforward, everyone will be access the same tools as you and professional music will be accomplished by everyone. So no more money there (extreme fragmentation of earns). At the moment the complexity of nebula is a value for you, because it keeps away your competitors from using it.

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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby cc808 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:48 pm

I'm familiar with that line of argument, and it's objectionable on an array of levels. ** It can be read as an argument for obfuscation of knowledge & function in order to attain an income advantage.

***

It's also a principle that might lead to writing substandard installers & GUIs

***

edited re richie's request for tolerance. It's only a critique restricted to just one specific feature, and the principle subsequently used to defend it
Last edited by cc808 on Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby richie43 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:03 pm

One, I apologize because I didn't note that you are on a Mac. My bad. Second, when reading Giancarlo's responses, take into account that we are all trying to speak languages that are not our native tongues, so try to read into what everyone is actually communicating. Third, have you looked at the cost of great software (or hardware, for that matter)? The devs of Nebula provide a revolutionary type of software for a very reasonable price. Is it perfect? Of course not. Does it have glitches? Of course. Are they trying to improve it? All of the time. And as more people figure out how much it can improve their digital audio, the more requests and complaints will follow. Keep the dialogues open, but keep the tolerance high as well. My 2 cents worth. Peace.
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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby ngarjuna » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:09 pm

cc808 wrote:No ones arguing for ignorance, just for the devs of software to maintain a respectful awareness of the time pressures & resultant knowledge contraints that their users are working with.. and to keep in step with the majority of devs who are humanizing their software accordingly.


Of course.

You should also remember that many of us are musicians, composers & producers firstly.. advanced, gutsy tech knowledge was not expected in any of those fields in your days of yore. But the reality is, we are expected to have a far greater skillset nowadays (e.g. producing, engineering & mastering your own music, not to mention self-managing every other aspect of our business). There's only so many third degree removed skills that we can acquire before that primary creative focus becomes compromised.

Anyway, derailment aside. Acustica have commendably listened to the conversation, & that's appreciated.


By derailment you mean me commenting on your statement that philosophically "...users [shouldn't] need to know the guts of their machines in order to get good functionality from them..." As I pointed out, the trend seems to indeed be going the opposite direction (towards greater accessibility to under-the-hood features). In that respect Nebula is yet another example of this trend.

While it's true that there are no doubt many users who are not engineers, it's worth keeping in mind that Nebula is primarily a tool for audio engineering. While it has plenty of usefulness to home producers or tinkering musicians it has to be extensible the needs of professional engineers or it's just a toy, not a piece of professional audio software. Not that there's anything wrong with so-called "toys", they serve a totally different and valid audience. Nobody is dissing non-professionals but their lack of needs does not solely dictate the user interface of a product which serves a more demanding, more knowledgeable user base as (arguably) its primary goal. Nebula is the bleeding edge of audio engineering software; there are lots of easier-to-use choices out there in every category with their own trade offs.

That is why, in addition to the software and manuals themselves, communities have become a vital part of these kinds of small-market software offerings. The number of copies of Nebula that Acustica will sell will never allow Giancarlo to hire a professional technical writing team (which would be awesome, I'm not disagreeing with you there). We count on each other and the expertise we've accumulated over our careers combined with feedback from the devs (you do know that most companies' lead devs don't engage in daily support conversations with their customers, right?) to make a subject with very little written information and guidance more accessible. What you identify as a negative (reliance on the forums) is actually a huge positive when you compare it to other realistic potential outcomes which don't feature active support communities.
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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby cc808 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:24 pm

ngarjuna wrote:By derailment you mean me commenting on your statement

Well I actually would include my initial 'philosophical' statement itself, but now I would include most of the subsequent conversation. All this stuff is quite beside the installation problems, and tbh a debate on principles is not of any direct help on the matter. No one's defined an active forum community as a negative. What you're pointing out are general positives, but of little relevance to the point - an unhelpful installation process. fwiw, I've often worked as a full time engineer too. none of this has any bearing on the benefits of a detailed installation / quick start guide put in a sensible place as part of the installation.

There's no need to make a generalized defence of Giancarlo because there's no generalized criticism. It is commendable of him to put himself in the centre of the conversation, I edited my upthread disagreement with him in acknowledgement of that.
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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby ngarjuna » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:41 pm

cc808 wrote:
ngarjuna wrote:By derailment you mean me commenting on your statement

Well I actually would include my initial statement itself. All this stuff is quite beside the installation problems, and tbh a debate on principles is not of any direct help on the matter. No one's defined an active forum community as a negative. What you're pointing out are general positives, but of little relevance to the point - an unhelpful installation process.


You are the one who brought it up, man. Had you not made the philosophical point it never would have been addressed here.

There's no need to make a generalized defence of Giancarlo because there's no generalized criticism. It is commendable of him to put himself in the centre of the conversation, I edited my upthread disagreement with him in acknowledgement of that.


I have been interacting with Giancarlo for several years now and I definitely believe that he is very capable of 'defending' himself if such a thing were necessary.

If you're wondering, then, why I would engage in such a discussion the reason is simple: all Nebula development is a zero sum game due to the scarcity of human resources. Any feature or request that gets implemented literally and directly leads to another feature or request getting delayed or canceled.

While Giancarlo et. al are devs with a solid vision and a great plan, we all know that enough bellyaching from the user base can have an impact on those visions and plans (as they probably should in many cases). Thus, when users unanimously agree on something, it's worthwhile for users to post (even without adding new information) because it gives the devs a solid idea of how their users are feeling about a paticular issue. It is similarly useful, when we users do not agree with an idea, to point that out (and why) so that the devs can understand the ubiquity of the request and decide whether or not that should impact their plans.

So in regard to spending resources to streamline documentation and installers...that seems like a lot less of a priority than some of the other major developments underway (side-chaining, server and localserver, Mac development [which is of 0 value to me personally but I can understand why it's of such great value to Acustica], compressor sampling support, new UI, changes to category handling, etc.), especially when you take into consideration that the answers to all those questions (and more which haven't been asked yet) can all be obtained from the forums. The kinds of features that are important to me cannot be derived from the support community, they can only come from the actual devs. To me, that's a solid case for why documentation takes such a back seat in Nebula right now. When Nebula is in a state that there aren't major feature requests pending development I think it would be very easy to make a good case for catching up on the documentation and support materials at that time.
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Re: You need to provide a step by step installation guide

Postby cc808 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:02 pm

Ive already stated my regret about bringing up the philosophical point because its lead to a lot of blusterous and unfocused talk that's amounted to very little.

Half the contributors to this small thread agree the installation is an issue, i've seen several confused people elsewhere on the forum obviously wasting a lot of their time over this. Many hours of net wasted time across all new users is an issue.

And all it would take, minimum, is an accurate html link at the end of the installation. Or, (gasp!), an already written pdf file bundled with mac installer. That would require about the amount of effort you've spent writing your posts. Get some perspective.
Last edited by cc808 on Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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